In this episode of the Fundraising Everywhere Podcast, host Simon Scriver sits down with Jeff Schreifels (Principal & Owner) and Andy Milligan (Managing Director, UK & Europe) from Veritus Group for an “ask the expert” session tackling the most frequently asked questions from fundraisers about major and mid-level donor programs.
The conversation covers practical, numbers-backed guidance on:
Touch points & channels – Whether newsletters, mass emails, and appeals count as real touch points, and how to blend direct response with personal cultivation
Caseload size – Why 150 donors is the benchmark for a full-time major gift officer (and 500–700 for mid-level), plus how to scale that down for one-person shops
Qualifying donors – How to identify donors ready for a major gift approach, and why current giving behaviour beats wealth screening
Justifying the investment – Why organisations hesitate to fund major gift programs, the ROI comparison with direct response, and why you should budget for at least two years
Re-engaging lapsed donors – A multi-channel approach, and why you shouldn’t let re-engagement come at the detriment of active donors
Contact frequency – At least one touchpoint per month for major donors, and why most organisations are under-contacting rather than over-contacting
Value attrition – The overlooked metric that’s costing nonprofits 40–60% of revenue from existing donors year over year, and why year-over-year growth can mask the problem
Program costs & core costs – How to work with finance teams to present full-cost donor offers, and why major donors understand overhead better than we think
A huge thank you to Veritus for being our headline for our Trusts and Major Donors Conference, happening on the 10th December. Learn more here
Check out Veritus’ upcoming webinars
Take the free donor assessment
Contact Veritus
If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to hit follow and enable notifications so you’ll get notified to be first to hear of future podcast episodes. We’d love to see you back again!
And thank you to our friends at JustGiving who make the Fundraising Everywhere Podcast possible.
Transcript
Jade Cunnah: Welcome to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast, your go-to place for fundraising tips and inspiration. Love what you hear? Get more insights straight to your inbox. Subscribe to our email list for exclusive fundraising resources, early access to training, special discounts, and more. Just head on over to fundraisingeverywhere.com/podcast to subscribe.
Jade Cunnah: Now, on to today’s episode. Enjoy.
Simon Scriver: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. My name is Simon Scriver, one of the co-founders of Fundraising Everywhere, and we are gearing up as we head towards our trusts and major donors conference in December. You will find that on fundraisingeverywhere.com. I hope you’re coming to join us.
Simon Scriver: Um, but one of our headline sponsors from that is the wonderful Veritus Group. Uh, and so we’ve invited them onto, uh, on today to the podcast to, I guess, throw some questions at them. We have some frequently asked questions, some common questions. So think of this as another sort of ask the expert, uh, episode, uh, where we get two bright brains into the room, and basically I just bombard them with, uh, your questions and questions that you’ve put across to Veritus, uh, at some of their webinars.
Simon Scriver: Um, some of you might have seen some of their webinars in the past that they’ve run with us, some of the interviews we’ve had. They’ve always been so generous with their knowledge and just, um, just such expertise in the area of, of major donors. Um, and for those of you who are members or anyone on our website, you’ll find some of the, um, the Veritus sessions there on demand to watch back in your own time.
Simon Scriver: There’s a great session there on how to maximize donor-advised funds, which I know you guys are always looking for, uh, and how to double your major donors, which is, of course, is something that we’re all looking for. So there’s lots of great content from Veritus, but let’s get into some very specific questions that have been submitted to you guys.
Simon Scriver: So I’m gonna welcome my guests today. Um, I’ve got the wonderful Andy Milligan and the wonderful Jeff Schriefels, uh, back from Veritus Group with me today. Good day to you, sirs.
Jeff Schreifels: Good day to you too.
Jade Cunnah: Yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: Thanks for having us.
Simon Scriver: Nice to see you again. It’s been- Yeah. It feels like it’s been a while, so I’m always- Yeah
Simon Scriver: happy when you guys make the time because I, major donors is not my, uh, I would say it’s not my area of expertise. So I always learn a lot when I’m talking from you. And so when I was looking through some of these frequently asked questions, um, these are exactly the kind of questions that I want to ask you guys, and you guys always have a good answer for me.
Simon Scriver: So before we get into the questions, maybe I could ask you to introduce yourselves a, a, a little bit. And Jeff, I might start with you. As the owner of Veritus, maybe you could, um, introduce yourself, but also tell us a little bit about Veritus, uh, and what you do for those who don’t know. Okay.
Jeff Schreifels: Great. Thanks so much.
Jeff Schreifels: I’m Jeff Schriefels, and I’m the principal and owner of Veritus. Veritus has been around Gosh, two decades really. And, uh, what Verdis does is we come alongside nonprofits to help them create, build, and manage mid and major gift programs. And over the time period, over those last two decades, we’ve worked with hundreds of nonprofits all over the world, both in the US and in Europe.
Jeff Schreifels: And we’ve had great success because what we do in major gifts is we really start with data, and then we build out, um, a structure from which major gift officers can work from, mid and major gift officers can work from. And that structure really is the key because it allows those fundraisers to have the time to build authentic relationships with donors.
Jeff Schreifels: Mm. And so when that happens, revenue goes up. Revenue is a result of building those relationships. In fact, we would say fundraising really isn’t about the money. It’s about building relationships with donors. The result of that is the mo- is the revenue that comes in from them. And so that’s what we’ve been doing over the last two decades.
Jeff Schreifels: And, uh, we also have a Verdis Group A- uh, Academy that trains fundraisers. We’ve trained over 7,000 fundraisers all over the world, uh, since 2016 actually. And, uh, that’s been a, a great joy of ours as well, so.
Simon Scriver: It’s ama- And, and I’m so delighted that you always do share your knowledge. Um, verdisgroup.com is your website, isn’t it?
Simon Scriver: And people can find- That’s right … some, some of the training you put on there. Um, but I mean, you’re… What you’re training people on, has that changed over two decades? I mean, there, there’s a lot of changes in the world. But how much has- Well,
Jeff Schreifels: we start… Yeah. We started out with just major gifts, and then we really helped pioneer relationship-based mid-level.
Jeff Schreifels: Um, it really came out of a client that just had a n- a huge number of donors that weren’t major donors, but also were just being cultivated through direct response. And they felt like, “Gosh, there must be something we could do with this mid-level group.” And I remember I was in the, I was in the United Airline club after a big meeting, and I started writing on a napkin, what could we do to apply the major gift idea to mid-level?
Jeff Schreifels: And we came up with our mid-level idea- in, in United Club in, in Chicago one day. And we, we got one client to say, “Yeah, let’s do that,” and it started working, and then it just grew from there. And we did our first conference. Gosh, it was a direct response c- conference in- Mm … in, uh, New York, where we talked about one of our clients that were doing mid-level, and it was packed because no one had ever talked about mid-level.
Jeff Schreifels: This must have been, like, 2011 or something.
Simon Scriver: Mm-hmm.
Jeff Schreifels: And no one was really talking about mid-level, and we started showing the results of that. And of course, now there’s a whole track just for mid-level in conference. Yes. So it’s been really cool to see how that discipline has grown. Um, but yeah, so having- It feels like-
Jeff Schreifels: mid-level part of our has been amazing.
Simon Scriver: It feels like mid-level has been newly discovered to a lot of the sector, but there’s people like you who’ve been kind of banging the drum, uh, for a long time. So it- I’m glad it’s getting more airtime. Um- Yeah … and I, I’m gonna also welcome, uh, Andy Milligan, uh, from Veritus.
Simon Scriver: Andy, lovely to see you again. How are you? Who are you, for those that don’t know?
Andy Milligan: Thanks, Simon. Yeah, so I’m the, uh, managing director here for Veritus UK and Europe. So the way I like to say it is everything east of, uh, sort of North America falls under my purview, bar Australia, ’cause that time zone change is just mad from, uh-
Andy Milligan: even from the UK. Um, I’ve been at Veritus for four years, I think now. But I mean, I’ve been using the Veritus way for, for several years. I mean, I’ve sat where fundraisers sat, where you’ve got trustees asking you to raise more money, and you’re like, “I don’t even know what I’m doing here.” So, uh, the Veritus way was totally helpful for me and got me, got me shifting, got me moving, got me understanding.
Andy Milligan: So, uh, yeah, it was a, a real pleasure to join, join the organization and help more nonprofits around the world.
Simon Scriver: Amazing. And I’m, I’m delighted that you two are here for me to ask some perhaps awkward questions. I don’t know. I mean, I think these are frequently asked questions, so I imagine these are stuff you get all the time, and I imagine it’s people listening to this are, are the questions that, uh, fundraisers have on their brain are…
Simon Scriver: but maybe sometimes are too afraid to ask, ’cause it can be a bit scary asking for not the basics, but you know, maybe sometimes the basics. So do you mind if I throw some of these questions at you? Do you have any objection? Do you have your fingers on the buzzer and ready to go?
Jeff Schreifels: We’re ready.
Simon Scriver: Okay. Amazing.
Simon Scriver: Uh, I’m gonna get straight into it. So this is one that comes up about newsletters, mass email, mass emails, uh, or appeals. Do they count as real touch points, or would you categorize them as a channel? Or where do they sit? How do you view this? Does that make sense?
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah, it does. Well, I think we would first advocate that either a mid-level or a major gift program, you don’t want to take donors out of your regular direct response program.
Jeff Schreifels: So the mid-level and the major gift is, is essentially overlaid on top of what donors are already getting because especially the mid and, and, and the major because that’s how they’ve been cultivated for years p- possibly. And so why would you take them out of that? So yes, that is always cultivating them.
Jeff Schreifels: I think though in the mid and major work, what we do is we create a separate on top of the direct response communication stream for the, for the year. And, you know, for majors, that’s… You’re real- you’re gonna ask- you’re gonna create a plan for every individual donor, and some of that could be from the direct response.
Jeff Schreifels: Uh, could be newsletters or appeals. You might wanna make them much more personal in a major gift and a mid-level than you would your mass. But yes, those things can be called touch points. Um, but it’s really blending together the direct response and then also the personal touch points as- Mm … throughout the year for mid and major.
Simon Scriver: I, I remember you saying that in a previous conversation, and it was like, it was a real, “Oh, yeah” moment. That, that point about those day-to-day touch points, the regular touch point, that’s what got- Yeah … them there- Yeah … in the first place. And, and I think so many organizations, we have a reflex action, whereas as soon as they’re identified as a major donor, it’s like, “Oh my God, don’t disturb them.”
Simon Scriver: Like, they don’t wanna hear anything from us unless it’s really… Do you know? Yeah. But that’s the journey they’ve been on.
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah. C- we make up stories about donors a lot. Always thinking like, “Oh, they’re getting too much. They’re, they’re gonna be upset.” And that’s just not the case.
Simon Scriver: Mm.
Jeff Schreifels: You know? And so, um, yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: So appeals, newsletters, all of those things are great because if you think about it, appeals and newsletters are telling the, the donor what’s happening in the organization. What are- Mm … what are their needs, you know?
Simon Scriver: I, I’m interested actually, a slight aside there, Andy, um, but from you as a, as the western side of it, west- uh, sorry, east of, uh, of America, what’s the difference?
Simon Scriver: Do you know? Because I always get this vibe that Americans are very much more used to a lot more communications, a lot more mail, a lot more of that. Is there a difference in how people think?
Andy Milligan: Do you know, it, it’s a question we get all the time. So we work all over UK and Europe, and often we’ll start working in a new country for the first time just because we sign a, a client there, and we’ll start working with them.
Andy Milligan: And, and the biggest objection we always get is like, “Oh yeah, but this isn’t gonna work here,” or- Yeah, yeah … “We’re really different here. Our culture’s so different, this isn’t gonna work.” But the methodology is the same everywhere. Like, it’s applied the same everywhere. There’s certain nuances and things that are, of course, culturally relevant, but ultimately the methodology works.
Andy Milligan: And it works because i- it’s a relational model. That’s what this is about. Mm. It’s about how do we treat donors in an authentic, real way, and then give them the opportunity to give to their full potential. That’s what it’s all about, and that, I mean, that applies everywhere in the world.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. I love that.
Simon Scriver: I mean, that phrase, um, “That’ll never work here,” I, I think I’ve heard that as many times as I’ve seen it been disproven. Do you know? Yeah. So I’m glad you’re saying that. Um, let me jump onto the next question. This comes from a number of people. We get asked this a lot as well. How many donors should be on a single caseload?
Simon Scriver: Now, you might need to unpack that phrasing a little bit, but essentially how much, how much weekly time should be protected for donor work? How many donors should you be working with at a time? What are your thoughts on that?
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah, do you wanna-
Andy Milligan: Yeah, so if we’re talking about major gifts, we would say on average a ma- full-time major gift officer needs about 150 donors on their portfolio.
Andy Milligan: That, that’s an amount of donors which is manageable on a day-to-day basis, but also produces the right net revenue, because that’s kind of that dual purpose of a caseload, right? That you want to make sure that donors are being treated authentically, they’re getting the opportunity to, to give to their full potential, but that portfolio also has to generate net revenue, otherwise it’s, it’s a waste of money that’s being spent on it.
Andy Milligan: And so for major gifts, we say to people, “Right, we’re going to start with a, a pool of about 450, and that’ll come down to 150,” because we want to relationally qualify everybody and make sure that they’re the right person to be on that caseload, and that they actually want a relationship with the organization, because not everybody’s gonna want that.
Andy Milligan: If we’re talking mid-level, we look at much larger caseloads, but these are more semi-relational programs, mid-level or, or mid-value, whatever you want to call it. And so we look at about 500 to 700 relationships there with, you’re looking at more like quarterly touch points or, or bi-monthly touch points. And so it, it, it’s a lot less to manage, uh- Mm-hmm
Andy Milligan: than a major gift caseload. Sitting at those thresholds for both of those is what’s going to bring you the best return on investment.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. And, and I love that you guys always share numbers like that because so few people are willing to do it, but those actual kind of tangible benchmarks of what you’re working towards.
Simon Scriver: But in terms of, you’re not talking about like 700 meetings a month, are you? Like you said, some- sometimes that’s just a quarterly check-in, that’s a quarterly touch in. But those are people who are what, like active on your books almost you’d consider them?
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah.
Andy Milligan: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. This is not like we’re gonna meet everybody on the caseload every single month.
Andy Milligan: I mean, that would be, that’d be madness. You’d never, you’d never get that done. But it’s, it’s about having a structured plan. So sometimes that touchpoint will be a story about something that’s going on. Mm. We just try and make sure we personalize it as much as possible, make it relatable to that donor.
Andy Milligan: So I’m, I’m gonna have donor A over here, and I’m gonna make sure I know what their passion and, and interest is, so whatever I send them will 100% relate to that. Because, like, the direct mail appeal, for example, is going out, sometimes that might not hit the spot for that donor because they’re talking about something else, but the touchpoints are 100% gonna be relatable to that person to make sure that they’re staying in the know about the stuff that we know that, that they really care about.
Andy Milligan: And we’re also- Yeah … measuring what we call meaningful connection over activity. So it’s really easy to be like, “Right, well, I, I called 100 donors this month.” Uh, well, that’s great. Fantastic. You, you made 100 calls. But how many times did the relationship move forward? So how many times did you actually learn something new or, or get to a new place with the donor?
Andy Milligan: Because that’s much more relevant to, to manage, to understand was there a meaningful connection, and so we’ve got to the next part of the journey with that donor.
Simon Scriver: Is that something you would actually categorize and tally? Like, do you know I’ve got a hu- 100 contacts and, and this month I had 10 meaningful, uh- Mm-hmm
Simon Scriver: connections. That- that’s terminology. That’s interesting. Yes.
Jeff Schreifels: Yes, absolutely.
Andy Milligan: Yeah. Like, on, on the donor engagement plan, the, the tool that we use, and I think if you go to the on-demand webinar stuff on your website right now, you can download that donor engagement plan off the back of any of those webinars.
Andy Milligan: We have a metric on there which is meaningful connections and, and that’s counting how many meaningful connections there has been a month for that fundraiser.
Simon Scriver: Amazing. That’s super
Jeff Schreifels: good. That 150 number is also really good to know, especially I’m … I would assume that you might have a lot of listeners to this podcast that are a small shop and are doing multiple things, and they’re like, “How am I gonna do all the fundraising things plus have relationships with donors?”
Jeff Schreifels: And if you use that 150 mark for a full-time major gift officer- And let’s say you’re the only one, you’re the one-person shop or you have three people in your shop, and you can only devote half of your time to major gifts.
Simon Scriver: Mm.
Jeff Schreifels: Well, then you can use that marker to say, “I can only cultivate 75 donors.”
Simon Scriver: Mm.
Jeff Schreifels: Or, “If I only have 10% of my time, then I can work with 15 donors-
Simon Scriver: Mm
Jeff Schreifels: reliably,” you know? And so that 150 marker is good to let you judge, based on how much time you have to devote- Mm … how many donors can you reasonably cultivate and steward over time.
Simon Scriver: The import- it sounds like the importance so much relies in, in quantifying it and measuring it, as opposed to just that hoping for as many donations this month as possible and making as many phone calls as possible and-
Jeff Schreifels: That’s right.
Simon Scriver: Makes sense. Yeah. You mentioned, Andy, you used the word qualified donors there. Could you maybe unpack that a little bit more? What do, what do you actually mean by qualified donor?
Andy Milligan: Yeah. Well, when we talk about qualified donors, we’re talking about people who actually want that relationship with the organization.
Andy Milligan: So you’re gonna have a whole ton of people who give to your organization who want to do so quietly. They don’t wanna make a fuss. They just wanna carry on doing that. And often when we start working with organizations, we’ll look at portfolios and we’ll see major gift officers with, like, 1,000 people in their portfolio.
Andy Milligan: It’s, it’s madness. But loads of the people on there are those types of people. They’re just, they’re not interested. Mm. So there’s no point in running a, a major gift approach with them. So what we wanna do is whenever we help a, a fundraiser do this, we go through the process of qualification. It’s a, a seven-step process where we’re trying to connect with the donor and make that meaningful connection.
Andy Milligan: So we’re gonna make sure that, A, that person is somebody who’s right for that caseload. So we start with the data, so we wanna look at the donors who are the most potential to, to give the most, ’cause that’s important. But then relationally qualify them to make sure they want a relationship, and if they do, great, then we can start to, to make a plan.
Andy Milligan: But we don’t wanna make a plan until we’ve gone through that qualification process first.
Simon Scriver: Mm. That, that potential is an interesting one, and it ties into a question that comes up a lot. I see it in the FAQ. What that signal that a donor is ready to move into a major gift. Like, what, what are those kind of clear signals that tell you?
Simon Scriver: Yeah. Is it just AI? Do you just ask AI? Or
Jeff Schreifels: No. Actually, it’s what are they doing giving right now? I mean, frequent- it, it- looking … The best prospects are those donors that are giving at a major gift level and that they’ve given fairly frequently or, uh, you know, within the last few months. Those are the top donors.
Jeff Schreifels: And then going down the, you know, how long th- how long was their last gift? How big was their last gift? We’re talking about donors- Unfortunately, a lot of nonprofits are building their major gift program based on wealth indicator analysis or any information about w- they think about this donor rather than actual clear evidence that they’ve given these kind of gifts to you.
Simon Scriver: Mm.
Jeff Schreifels: And so we always start with donors that are actually giving. And then as we’re building out the portfolio, um, we may go down into looking at, okay, their gift, but also then what does their wealth indicator analysis say? What’s their- Mm … potential? But we wanna work with people who are already donors.
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah. Donors who have said, “I love this mission. I’m giving to this mission,” and we wanna talk to those people first.
Simon Scriver: It, it’s a much easier job, isn’t it, than trying to convince someone who’s never- who’s wealthy but never heard of you- Yeah … that they’re- that they should be interested, learn all, and then try and convert them.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. It makes a lot more sense.
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah.
Simon Scriver: I think I told this story the last time I was talking to you, but I, I had one day as a fundraising consultant, I met with two charity boards in the same day and they both suggested Bonner as a potential donor. Completely independently- … two, two boards suggested Bonner.
Simon Scriver: Of course. So I thought, thought that was interesting. Um, but Sweet- um, we get a, a number of people who come to us, and I’m sure a number of people who come to you and, and now attend your webinars, who are looking at perhaps hiring a major gifts officer. Do you know when you get to that point and it warrants actually someone dedicated to this?
Simon Scriver: I would love to hear you talk about this, about how, how you actually start. Uh, you know, where you find people like this, how you measure it. Anything you could help us in terms of actually bringing someone on to look after this.
Andy Milligan: Hmm. Well, the best place to start is to start with the data. So we at Veritus talk about our donor assessment.
Andy Milligan: So before we work with any organization, we run a free donor assessment for them. Part of that assessment is to understand the staffing and revenue potential. So we wanna look at the numbers in the file and understand what that is telling us in terms of number of major gift officers, number of mid-level officers.
Andy Milligan: That is 100% the place that they should start because the data will tell the story. Like, we have a, a webinar coming up on October 13th, which is looking at specifically this. If you go look on the website in our webinar section, you’ll find out about it. It’s called The Hidden Problem That’s Costing Nonprofits Thousands or Maybe Millions in Revenue, and it’s all about this, how do you understand what’s going on in the file, because without that, you can’t then make any changes or, or have any recommendations to go forward.
Simon Scriver: It’s, it’s a scary prospect though, isn’t it? Like, investing in major donors as a charity? Do you know, putting money aside- Yeah … for that. Like, the, the idea of… I guess, yeah. I mean, that-
Jeff Schreifels: It’s amazing to me that they’ve… that there’s so much fear about it. You know, o- often… I run into this almost every day, where like, “I don’t know if we can afford this.
Jeff Schreifels: We don’t have budget for major gifts.” And I’m like, “Okay, but you’re spending millions on your direct response program.”
Simon Scriver: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: And your return is, like, you know, you’re losing money at acquisition. At best, you’re getting a three to four to one ROI on your direct response program, and you’re spending millions, and you don’t think in anything about that.
Jeff Schreifels: But to spend, you know, 100,000- Yeah … on major gifts knowing you’re gonna get a 10 to one ROI, that’s a problem? And so one of the beautiful things about the assessment is that it does show, hey, if you invest here, over the next five years, this is what this program could develop into.
Simon Scriver: Mm-hmm.
Jeff Schreifels: And the, I mean, the ROI is phenomenal.
Jeff Schreifels: You, you know? And really, every nonprofit’s major gift program should be the major program that’s bringing in the net revenue, right? Mm-hmm. The direct response program is bringing in new donors. It’s cultivating them up. But ultimately, it’s your mid and major gift programs sh- Mm … that should be bringing the net for all those programs you have.
Jeff Schreifels: So why wouldn’t you spend some money investing into that program? Because long-term, that’s where that net revenue’s gonna come from. But I feel like no one really unders- I shouldn’t say no one. Many people don’t understand how mid and major gifts work. And so th- what they don’t know, they’re afraid of.
Jeff Schreifels: They do know is, “Hey, we’re sending out the mail, and we get a return within 10 to 30 days.”
Simon Scriver: Yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: We know that. But at some point, someone had to take a leap in that organization to do the direct response program, right?
Simon Scriver: Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: Right? So they eventually did that, and now look at it. It’s, it’s changed their organization.
Jeff Schreifels: Well, now we’re at this point now that people have to look at relationship-based fundraising because on the direct response side, you’re starting to see some of those numbers wane. It’s getting more expensive. Yeah. The results aren’t the same as they used to be 20 years ago.
Simon Scriver: Yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: Major donors is where it’s at.
Simon Scriver: Mm. It, it’s so interesting, and that comparison between, like, a regular giving or individual giving investment, it’s so true. Like, it just- I- uh, what, what is it? It, it- does it seem- Yeah … safer to people? Or, Andy, I’m curious, like, from your clients that you talk to- Mm … what, what is the fear that holds it back?
Andy Milligan: I think because it looks like almost a, an immediate return or an immediate thing. Like, you send out an appeal- Mm … you’re gonna get revenue in that next month, right? So that keeps the lights on, that keeps everything moving. Whereas a major gift program, it’s gonna take a year at least to get it, to get it working and get it right.
Andy Milligan: And so I think sometimes that is what maybe, maybe scares people. They think, “Oh, are we gonna- are we actually gonna get a return on this?” But from, from what we know to be true, the clients that we work with, like, last year alone, any client that had done at least one year with us, they saw their portfolios grow by, on average, 19%.
Andy Milligan: And that was from a starting position of th- those portfolios declining by 29%. So they were in 29% decline, and in just one year, the fundraisers we worked with were able to flip that round to plus 19%. I mean, that really just speaks for itself in terms of return on investment. So for us, it’s a question of you can’t not do this.
Andy Milligan: It’d be crazy not to do this. Mm. You’ve got to invest in this if you wanna get those higher returns and accelerate your growth as an organization.
Simon Scriver: And there are so many success stories like this. I mean, not even just with your clients, but in, in, like, charities throughout history. The ones that are massive now, they have these key moments in the past where they’ve made the decision to invest in that kind of thing- Yeah … and, and it pays off.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. It’s really interesting.
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah.
Simon Scriver: So interesting. Um, we- I
Jeff Schreifels: also
Simon Scriver: feel
Jeff Schreifels: like- Sorry … Simon, that sometimes nonprofits will figure out a way not to talk to donors, that they- It’s like, if we can just send out emails and mail- Yeah … if we can hold events- Yeah … where we really don’t have to have one-on-one conversations, let’s do that before we have to actually sit down across the table and- Yeah … have a conversation with a donor and get to know who they are.
Jeff Schreifels: That’s scary for a lot of folks.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: And it doesn’t have to be. But once you get over that, and you start to have those conversations, then you see, wow, the potential is just tremendous.
Simon Scriver: Yeah, 100%. And I think it’s worth saying again, um, we’re, we’re gonna link to the bio in a, uh, link in the description of this episode to everything we mentioned.
Simon Scriver: But do take, check out the Trust and Major Donors Conference. That’s coming up in December. We will be tackling some of these fears, you know, that we know fundraisers have. It can seem like a really scary prospect, so, um, the conference is there to, um, to help guide you through those kind of moments. And again, very grateful to Veritus for, um, being the headline for
Simon Scriver: Sponsor for that and making it happen. Um, but I’m gonna get straight onto the next question. We get asked this so much about re-engaging lapsed donors. How do you re-engage a lapsed donor, or just someone who you know is wealthy on your database who is just not really there with you? How, how do you re-engage people?
Andy Milligan: Well, yeah, there’s a couple of different ways of doing that. Like, one of the big things I would say is, uh, go back and have a look to see what they responded to previously to get an understanding. ‘Cause often we start sending stuff to, to people, and it’s nothing like the stuff they previously responded to.
Andy Milligan: So it’s really obvious why they’re not, they’re not actually giving anything. So we wanna try and target them with something that is what they care about, the stuff that we’ve seen that they respond to previously. I’d also say look at, look at multi-channel. So don’t just go down one channel of trying to, trying to reach that person.
Andy Milligan: Look at many different ways that you can, can get into contact with them a- and try to do that, uh, and see what results you get from that. But, but ultimately, I would say with, with lapsed donors, we don’t wanna put too much attention on them, right? Because the people who are giving right now are the people- Mm-hmm
Andy Milligan: who are much more likely to bring a higher return on investment. So yes, we absolutely should have re-engagement work. Mm-hmm. But let’s not do it at the detriment of our major or mid-level programs.
Simon Scriver: That makes sense. And, and I think you’re touching there on, on prioritization, which, which leads me nicely to the next question.
Simon Scriver: We get a lot of questions and a lot of our audience, and I’m sure it’s the same for you, for you guys, of solo, solo fundraisers, people doing this by themselves. Not just doing this, but also individual giving, also events, also fixing the kitchen, whatever. How do you, how do you do this relationship-based fundraising when you’re one person?
Simon Scriver: How do you manage it as one person? Any tips?
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah. Well, it kind of goes back to what I was talking about with the 150 n- you know, as a full-time person and using that as a baseline if you’re a maj- in major gifts. If you- we often say, we will say, there’s no excuse not to have a major gift program.
Simon Scriver: Mm-hmm.
Jeff Schreifels: I- if you’re a one-person shop and you’re doing multiple things, you can still have major, a major gift program.
Jeff Schreifels: You just, you might work with 10 donors.
Simon Scriver: Mm.
Jeff Schreifels: That’s okay. You can build out a plan for those 10 donors, a communication plan for, to steward and cultivate those donors, and be successful with those 10 donors. If that’s the time you have, you can be successful with that. So the key, though, is to really commit to this.
Jeff Schreifels: Um, that, yes, this is important for your organization, and yes, I only have 10% of my time to devote to it, but I’m going to be committed to that and be disciplined about it. And if you do, you’ll see the results of it.
Simon Scriver: Mm-hmm. And that’s something I remember you emphasizing before, is that, it is that not just the doing it, it’s the keep doing it.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. And I think that is where we see so many of these programs drop off, is it’s like, uh, you know, whether it’s the fundraiser themselves maybe getting discouraged or it’s the pressure from the, the management or board. Yeah. But just, like, if it’s not coming in in the first month’s salary, then it’s like it’s not worth it.
Simon Scriver: Right. Such a mistake. Such a
Andy Milligan: mistake. Yeah, that, that is one of the things that I really dislike whenever I hear. Whenever I get told, “Oh yeah, but we’ve got to make sure we cover the cost of the, uh, the major donor salary, major donor fundraiser salary.” It’s like that’s just the wrong attitude. The attitude is we want to budget for at least two years for this, I would say.
Andy Milligan: Let’s two-year pilot, let’s get this going because by the end of two years, if you follow our methodology, I guarantee you, you will get a return on that investment. It will be there because this, this works, but you’ve got to take the time to do it right.
Jade Cunnah: Yeah.
Simon Scriver: I’m going to put a disclaimer in that that’s not a guarantee-
Simon Scriver: just in case, just in case there’s a COVID-20 or some other unforeseen circumstance, but.
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah, I mean, that’s a good point because sometimes you can’t … You can only control what you can control.
Simon Scriver: Mm-hmm.
Jeff Schreifels: You know? And in a major gift fundraising, it can be volatile at times because, you know, a donor that you’re expecting £100,000 or euros from-
Simon Scriver: Mm
Jeff Schreifels: y- you know, something happens in their business and now they can only give 1,000. Mm. That … You’ve done all the right things as a, as a major gift officer, but the … You know, you didn’t do anything wrong. You worked your plan, yet that revenue didn’t come in. That’s not your fault. Um, and so the beauty of really working a plan and having a plan for every donor is that you know why or why not those donors give or don’t give.
Jeff Schreifels: Mm. That’s the beauty of major gifts is you should know that reason. Mm. If a donor at the end of the year, oh, this donor didn’t give, you should know exactly why.
Simon Scriver: Interesting, yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: You know? Yeah.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the things I lo- whenever you guys talk through your methodology, you always make it seem really, I don’t want to say systematic because I think that doesn’t do it justice, but it’s like there’s always gonna be those unknowns and those wild factors and, like you said, the ups and downs of the individuals in there.
Simon Scriver: But you’re almost, like, covering your bases by, by working through a, an actual process like there, ’cause you still have your portfolio of 150. Yeah, a percentage will drop off, a percentage will do this, but then you’re pr- it’s like a bit of a numbers game really, isn’t it? And you give yourself your best chance by being strategic with it, by being planned with it.
Jeff Schreifels: It is, and it’s the manager’s best friend to have that. Think about it. If you’re a manager of fundraisers, major gift fundraisers, and every one of your fundraiser has a plan and a, and a revenue goal that’s cash flowed for every donor- Mm … as a manager, you then know what’s going on or is expected every month.
Jeff Schreifels: Mm. And if you’re at half the month and you only have 10% of the revenue coming in, you can have a better conversation at that point in the month- Mm … than you can have two months after it was due and going, “Wait a minute, why didn’t that gift come in?”
Simon Scriver: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: It’s the best thing because you can be more proactive with your fundraising by having that.
Simon Scriver: That makes sense
Andy Milligan: Yeah. And, and it lets you have that kind of realistic budget year over year. So rather than going, “Right, we’re just gonna grow by 10% next year-” Yeah … “or 15%,” which puts strain on fundraisers, we can look and we can say, “All right, well, here’s the plan, so here’s what I realistically think we could get to within, within the next year,” and that’s what we aim towards.
Andy Milligan: And that’s really important because we are big champions of fundraisers, so we know that major gift fundraising is the hardest thing out there. It’s the hardest thing that any person has to do in a nonprofit, and so we are totally in their corner. Our coaches come alongside fundraisers, and they work with them.
Andy Milligan: They help them work that plan, design the plan, achieve their goals, and that is just so vital and important.
Simon Scriver: That’s amazing. That’s really awe- ‘Cause it is scary, isn’t it? ‘Cause you are, like, trying to sell this internally sometimes. And, and like you said, if you have those numbers, if you have that backing, that really instills confidence to the management that you- Mm-hmm
Simon Scriver: this is planned. This isn’t just pie-in-the-sky stuff.
Jeff Schreifels: That’s right.
Andy Milligan: Love it. Yeah. And, yeah, that’s why, like I said earlier, I think if you are in this situation right now where you’re thinking about a major gift program, just check out the, the donor assessment on the website and have a look at it. It will kind of talk you through what the metrics you should be looking at, how you can do that, and it can help bring the evidence.
Andy Milligan: ‘Cause at the end of the day, you do need evidence. We can’t just go, “Yeah, we just started a major gift program. Let’s just get going.” We wanna start with that data first and make sure that we’re, we’re doing it right so it’s set up for success.
Simon Scriver: Amazing. I love it. Thank you. Um, we get lots of calls, obviously, in every channel actually we get lots of, um, questions and stuff about how often you should be contacting donors and how often…
Simon Scriver: Um, you guys, I understand it’s a frequently asked question you get as well, so I’m gonna ask you for that magic number. What is the exact number of times you should be contacting every single person in the world? I’m sure it’s a very simple answer, isn’t it?
Jeff Schreifels: It’s pretty much a simple answer, yeah. I mean, we advocate for at least one touchpoint a month for a major donor.
Jeff Schreifels: So that could be a, a number of things. It could be just a thank you. It could be, uh, a piece called you made a difference. You know, showing the impact of their gifts. Uh, could be something personal, like it’s their birthday or an anniversary. Uh, it could be then a solicitation and different things you wanna send the donor in preparation for that solicitation.
Jeff Schreifels: So they’re not all … They’re not asking them for a gift every month- Mm … but they’re doing something to maintain that relationship and keeping it warm. Mm-hmm. And, you know, you tier those donors A, B, and C, so for your A- A tier, you’d have much more personalization with those donors than you would a tier C.
Jeff Schreifels: So that’s why it’s, as Andy would say, it’s more doable- Mm … to be able to handle 150 donors, um, throughout the course of the year. And then in mid-level, we advocate maybe a touchpoint w- every 60 to 90 days on top of the direct response program that’s already going out. Yeah,
Simon Scriver: yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: And I assume if you have a really good direct response program, it’s a frequent thing.
Jeff Schreifels: It’s … You’re at least touching them once a month, I would hope. Or so.
Simon Scriver: Hopefully. I mean, I do, I do find we get asked this question so much, and it always seems like organizations are not contacting enough. Do you know? No- Yeah … no matter what you talk about, it’s- it’s always like charities are, are worried about too much contact, but it’s very rare I see that.
Simon Scriver: It’s very rare people are over-contacting their major donors or overcoct- contacting their mid-level donors.
Jeff Schreifels: And the beauty of data is you can look at that data. Mm. Campaign data will tell you, are we soliciting too often? You just look at the response rates, the average gift, you know, the revenue that you’re expected.
Jeff Schreifels: I mean, I was a direct res- response fundraiser for 13 years and everyone would say, “Oh, we’re mailing way too many.” Mm. I’m like, “No, you’re not mailing enough. Look at the ROI on these campaigns. They’re way too high.” Yeah. You, you need to be mailing more or expanding the audience, right?
Simon Scriver: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All of that.
Simon Scriver: So- Thank you. Um, I’m curious about, um, donors, I suppose, canceling or attrition. Do you know? And, and w- there’s questions out there from people here about calculating attrition. Is
Simon Scriver: there a formula for it? How do, how do you kind of take this into account when you’re looking at your planning and your numbers and your pipeline? How many people drop off and things like that? What’s your approach?
Andy Milligan: Yeah. So i-in terms of attrition, so there’s two major metrics. The first one pretty much everybody talks about, which is donor attrition.
Andy Milligan: So how many donors do you have from one year to the next? Of course, you’re gonna lose some donors. I mean, that is, that is normal. You can’t expect to keep every donor every single year. That’d be crazy. Like, people, people die. There, there are change in circumstances, whatever. That’s just, that’s just natural.
Andy Milligan: When we look at value attrition, this is the piece that we find that people don’t seem to talk about as much, which is the amount of revenue from one year to the next from one group of donors. So, uh, that’s the bit that’s really important, that group of donors. So I, I wanna isolate all the donors in, in 2025 who gave 1,000 or more cumulative.
Andy Milligan: I’m gonna isolate them, and then I’m gonna track their behavior in 2026. So by the end of the year, I’ll have a, an understanding of where that benchmark is, and I can go backwards and do that earlier. So I can look at ’24, I can look at ’23- Mm … isolate those classes, and then understand the pattern, and that’s gonna give us that benchmark that we can work with.
Andy Milligan: So it sets up a benchmark, and then the goal is to, to beat that benchmark, to try and get that value attrition as low as we can get it. And that is often a much more helpful metric than donor attrition- Mm … which is the one that people normally think about.
Simon Scriver: Well, what are your main learnings from looking over it?
Simon Scriver: ‘Cause you guys must ha- You have a lot of clients. You have a lot of data there from what people- Yeah … are experiencing. Where does that attrition come from? What are the kind of main things you’re seeing and, and the way maybe people turn it around a little bit for themselves?
Jeff Schreifels: Well, typically the, the attrition happens because we’re not providing value to the donor.
Jeff Schreifels: Either they’re not getting good offers that they’re inspired by, or we’re not cultivating and stewarding them well. We don’t tell them their gifts are making a difference and how- Mm … specifically those gifts are making a difference, so they go somewhere else. That’s the reason why we see the value attrition.
Jeff Schreifels: Unfortunately, most nonprofits don’t even realize this value attrition is going on because most of the organizations that we’ve looked at only look at the power of their mid or major gift program as year-over-year revenue. So in 2024, we got a million dollars. The next year, we got 1.1, and the next year we got 1.2 million.
Jeff Schreifels: All right, we’re growing. Yeah. It’s interesting. Well, that’s great. But when we do the value attrition thing, when we’re looking by class year, we’re looking at the same donors every year. And when we see that, we usually see somewhere between 40% and 60% value attrition going on- And the only reason it’s growing is new donors keep coming in- Mm
Jeff Schreifels: and masking the behavior of the donors that are not giving as much. But no one looks at that. And so- That’s very interesting … we look at it and go, “You know that you lost $5 million over the last five years to value attrition?” And they’re like, “Well, but we grew by 21%.”
Simon Scriver: Yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah, you did, but you could’ve grown 42%.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. And it’s, it’s amazing to think of that kind of compound change that happens if you even just shave off a few percent of that value attrition and, and how it- Exactly … carries forward to the next year.
Jeff Schreifels: Exactly.
Simon Scriver: That’s very- Yep.
Andy Milligan: Yeah, like I- I literally had a presentation this morning with an organization, and for them it was like value attrition, this was the first time they’d ever seen it.
Andy Milligan: They were like, “Wow, what, what is this metric?” And I’m like, “Well, it’s the most important thing you should be tracking. So from now on let’s, let’s make sure we’re tracking it.” And, and it was exactly this case that- Yeah … the organization was growing. They were doing a great job of acquisition. Their acquisition program was fantastic.
Andy Milligan: They were bringing in a ton of new donors. Things were growing, but they were hemorrhaging money from donors giving 1,000-plus, and they didn’t, they didn’t realize. ‘Cause even that program, it was growing year over year, but it had the potential to accelerate massively- Yeah … if you really implemented a relational model into it.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. Wow. And I find it really assuring, reassuring when you guys are talking about it. It’s not like donors changing. It’s not like, um, you know, the economy’s tanked or people’s interest. You’re taking full ownership of this. We didn’t put in front of them a good enough offer. We didn’t keep them engaged.
Simon Scriver: Like, that- that’s how important this is, is like that’s our job as fundraisers, isn’t it? To control this. That’s
Jeff Schreifels: it. That’s the whole thing.
Simon Scriver: Love it. I’m coming into the last question here, uh, you’ll be pleased to know. Um, and so you- Great. Yeah. I haven’t, I don’t, I feel like I haven’t stumbled into any-
Jeff Schreifels: No, we could be here all day.
Jeff Schreifels: This is fun.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. Let me, let me come up with some trick questions then. Um, but we’ve got questions here about, um, I guess getting, um, concrete program cost information. Mm-hmm. So when you’re putting together donor offers, when you’re trying to be compelling, sometimes it’s, like, very challenging to work with finances.
Simon Scriver: Finance people are on a very different page from us sometimes. How do you start to get these in a place where you can actually present them to donors and potential donors?
Andy Milligan: Well, yeah, what you wanna do is you wanna lay out the cost of everything. So you wanna say, right, let’s say there’s all these five programs a organization does.
Andy Milligan: We wanna look at the total cost of running that organization. So how much does it cost to keep the lights on? How much does it cost to actually run that program wherever it is, wherever that kind of actual bit is? You wanna get all of that together i- in one table, and then break it down, which then allows you to get an understanding of how much it costs for the whole organization to run that one stream that they do.
Andy Milligan: And then you can start to break it down then by parts of that stream. So maybe you have a, an organization who’s working with children, and you’re able to work out the cost of what it is to work with however many children. You can then break that down as many times as you want. And we’re often very good at doing that in direct response because we have to have a- Mm
Andy Milligan: a dollar handle or a pound handle towards what something costs. We can do exactly the same thing for major gifts and just scale it up. So it allows us to put proposals out there which cover the program cost, but also the cost of running the organization, because that’s one of the, I would say, one of the biggest misconceptions that we have here in the UK, that, that people are scared about talking about the core costs- Mm
Andy Milligan: ’cause they think donors are gonna be like, “Well, no, we don’t, we don’t wanna fund core costs.” But I feel like we’ve created a kind of a, a problem because of that. Mm. We’ve created this monster where we have donors who are like, “But I want all of my money to go to that program.” But if every donor did that, the organization would shut down tomorrow.
Andy Milligan: And so we need to be re-educating donors about core costs and how important they are in, in helping make those programs run.
Jeff Schreifels: And honestly, major donors really get that.
Andy Milligan: Mm.
Jeff Schreifels: You know, when you talk to a major donor and you say, “Well, the actual program cost is, um, is 300,000, but with overhead it’s, it’s 450,000,” they get the whole concept because many of them are pretty business savvy.
Jeff Schreifels: Mm. You know, they understand that even in their own businesses, there’s overhead to what you’re doing. And so I’ve never had a major donor balk at the cost- Mm … and the full overhead cost of that. But it’s really important that an organization does go through that exercise of figuring out all of their program and projects, what do they really cost?
Jeff Schreifels: Because that will empower your major gift officer to have a list of all your projects and programs- Mm … at different dollar figures to be able to take to individual donors that matches their passions and interests up.
Simon Scriver: Mm.
Jeff Schreifels: So what does it take to do that? Honestly, the fundraisers, the fundraising side, the development team needs to take the finance team out for a pint and really get to know them Yeah
Jeff Schreifels: and g- and, and tell them, really sit them down and say why finance, why program is so important to fundraising and making that work. Yeah. Because y- we all work together. Without the fun- without the donors, the, the finance team’s not gonna be around.
Simon Scriver: Right. Yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: So we’re all in this together.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. I th- I think you two, you two have said two, have said two magical points during that which I just really wanna emphasize.
Simon Scriver: One is the importance of those, um, finance departments and development departments. I think that some people don’t realize how much of a fundraiser’s job is managing those relationships with those- Yeah … those internal relationships in terms of, um, like you say, the finances and the content, and in terms of the stories coming back.
Simon Scriver: I think that’s so important. And Andy, I am so thrilled that you’ve said out loud that, that this problem of core costs, it’s almost self-inflicted.
Jeff Schreifels: Mm.
Simon Scriver: Because we went out of our way for so long to try and hide them, that now it’s become a bit of a demand. But I really appreciate what Jeff has said there, is that really people don’t baulk at this.
Simon Scriver: If you can say it with confidence, if you can say it with justification- It’s very easy to justify these core costs really, isn’t it? Like, people do understand it.
Jeff Schreifels: Yes. Yep.
Simon Scriver: I love that. Definitive yes. What a way to finish.
Jeff Schreifels: Absolutely.
Simon Scriver: I’ll take it. I’ll take it. I, I do, I do have one last question for you as we come to the end here.
Simon Scriver: Um, I, I do wanna ask where people can find you, ’cause you guys are so helpful with your information. Um, I will say, obviously, on the Fundraising Everywhere site we have some content, uh, you can find by searching for them, for Veritus. There’s some great sessions in there. And Veritus, uh, will be at our Trust and Major Donors Conference, which is happening on, um, the 10th of December.
Simon Scriver: So we’re grate- very grateful for them being part of it. I will make sure there’s a link in the description if you wanna book in, join us. I imagine we’ll be unpacking so much of that in, in individual sessions throughout the conference. But where can people find you if their question wasn’t answered? Do you welcome people getting in touch, in touch with you, or do you want no one to come near you?
Simon Scriver: What’s your- What kind of people are you?
Andy Milligan: Yes, please. They, they can definitely reach out. If they go to our website, veritusgroup.com, you’ll find there are some Contact Us forms there. There’s the free donor assessment, which I mentioned- Yeah … that if you’re thinking about starting a program, that’s where I’d recommend you start.
Andy Milligan: That’s the best place to, to have a conversation with us. If you go to our, our webinar section, you’ll see that we have that webinar I mentioned on October 13th. We’re gonna be diving more into this idea of value attrition and, and the data side of things a- and what you need to do. That’s, that’s a great webinar and a great way to, to learn more.
Andy Milligan: But yeah, we’d, we’d love to hear from you if you wanna find out more. Plus, we have a ton of free resources on the website. We give a ton away for free. Yeah. So go on there. You can find white papers pretty much about everything we’ve talked about today, donor offers, major gifts, et cetera. It’s all on there for you to, to download and get access to because, like I said, we champion fundraisers.
Andy Milligan: We want you guys to be successful.
Simon Scriver: Yeah. You do, you do have great resources on your website. You do guy- guys do push out great stuff there. If I was getting started in major donors, if I was, like, trying to re- refresh my, you know, my major donors was kind of stagnant, I would be looking at your resources.
Simon Scriver: Um, and just really to kind of like get a bit more organized and systematic with it, you guys are always super helpful with that. And if I was selling it to my management, if I was trying to get investment for it, I think as well your white papers, your resources, some of the stuff you put out make it seem like a really logical step in a fundraising program.
Simon Scriver: Um, so I really appreciate that. Um, Jeff, where’s the best place for people to find you if they wanted to follow you, learn more about you, get in touch with you? Where do you hang out these days?
Jeff Schreifels: Uh, I’m on LinkedIn, so go on LinkedIn. Go to our website. Um, yeah. Veritus is on LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn. Andy’s there.
Simon Scriver: Yeah.
Jeff Schreifels: We’re always p- we’re always doing something, saying something out there, so.
Simon Scriver: It’s where the cool kids are these days, isn’t it, LinkedIn? Yeah, it’s- I feel like it’s the acceptable-
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah, there’s good conversations going on in LinkedIn
Simon Scriver: Yeah. The usual noise sometimes around there. But I, I like it. You guys, you guys are good followers.
Simon Scriver: I’ll endo- I’ll endorse you. Um, but that’s it really. I, I’ve been so grateful that you’ve made the time and just let me throw these questions at you. It has always been so enlightening and, and I think … I find you make major donors for someone, as I said, someone who certainly doesn’t count as an expertise.
Simon Scriver: You always make it seem way more manageable and way more, um, logical. So I really appreciate that. Guys- Yeah … Andy, Jeff, as always, thank you so much for your time. It’s been lovely to see you.
Jeff Schreifels: Thank you.
Simon Scriver: Thank you. And thank you for listening. Thanks to everyone who’s tuned in for the Fundraising Everywhere podcast.
Simon Scriver: Remember, we’ll be back with another episode soon. Um, but in the meantime, do check out fundraisingeverywhere.com for our upcoming events, for some of that content with Veritus I mentioned. Um, and really just get in touch with us if there’s anything else you would like to see, or you have a question that you would like us to throw at an expert, uh, next time.
Simon Scriver: We will certainly field that. So thanks for tuning in. Take care, everyone. Mind yourselves.
Jade Cunnah: Thank you for listening to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. If you’re enjoying this podcast, why not share it with a fundraising friend? And if you’d like to give us a little like or subscribe, it really helps fundraisers like you find us.
Jade Cunnah: Thank you so much. See you next time. Bye