Tune in to Florian Engel’s session from our 2026 Individual Giving Conference “Closing the engagement gap: the missing piece to turn leads into donors”
A common challenge in digital fundraising is the failure to engage supporters effectively before making a financial ask. This is what we call the ‘Engagement Gap’.This session explores how to cultivate deeper relationships through meaningful engagement actions. We will discuss designing strategies that go beyond simple clicks to build lasting trust and connection. Using real-world examples and actionable insights, you will learn to create experiences where supporters feel truly valued. We will also demonstrate how you can integrate wider engagement with your donation asks. By closing the engagement gap for your organisation you can improve the long-term results of your individual giving program.
Key learnings from this session:
- Why engagement matters so much in digital fundraising.
- How to identify the engagement gap in the supporter experience.
- Practical ideas and examples for engagement actions that will inspire you.
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And thank you to our friends at JustGiving who make the Fundraising Everywhere Podcast possible.
Transcript
Jade Cunnah: Welcome to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast, your go-to place for fundraising tips and inspiration. Love what you hear? Get more insights straight to your inbox. Subscribe to our email list for exclusive fundraising resources, early access to training, special discounts, and more. Just head on over to fundraisingeverywhere.com/podcast to subscribe.
Jade Cunnah: Now, on to today’s episode. Enjoy.
Florian Engel: Hello and welcome. So, um, f-first of all, uh, thanks for having us. Uh, and also thank you to Rhiannon ’cause, uh, I think, uh, the last questions, th-that was the perfect segue into, into today- today’s presentation because I will be talking more about, uh, what we call the engagement gap. So first of all, um, my name is Florian Engel.
Florian Engel: I’m, uh, the co-founder and managing director at the mobilization agency More Onion. You can find me online. Feel free to always reach out with, with, like, thoughts or questions or feedback or anything like that. Always happy to hear from people. Um, so, um, we are the mobilization agency. Uh, we work with
Florian Engel: We’ve worked with hundreds of organizations, um, in fundraising and campaigning over the years. Uh, but, uh, before we get into it, just r-brief, a brief, um, sort of warning. If anyone is very sensitive to flashing images, uh, please, uh, be careful. The first, uh, couple of slides will have a few, uh, flashing images on it.
Florian Engel: So let’s get right into it. Um, so what is the engagement gap? What is, what is this gap that we’re talking about? Um, when we talk … When we think about the work that we do as fundraisers, we have to acknowledge that we live in an attention economy. With, uh, TikTok and, and Instagram and all of these, uh, platforms, everything is about, like, speed, uh, quick changes, short formats, and capturing people’s attention for as long as possible, and as soon as the next thing comes up, um, it kind of continues.
Florian Engel: So, um, what we’re doing here is competing over, um, attention with, with, like, in, in a very specific environment, and I would argue that this environment has, uh, changed significantly. So what, what that often leads to is that most of the budget that we have is invested in competing over attention, and we’ve certainly been there, like w-optimizing these, these, um, ad programs and, and trying to get every little piece of the puzzle right, uh, and spending lots of, like, on, on, on testing and, and things like that.
Florian Engel: Uh, but what we’re also seeing is that the cost of paid ads has gone up. Uh, the return on investment is often, um, much lower than it used to be, and again, this kind of connects a little bit to, to, um, what, what Rhiannon’s been saying about, um, about the, uh, h-how, how the landscape is changing and how, how, like, diversification of channels and all of those things are important.
Florian Engel: But what I’m trying to say here is, um, it’s not like, uh, 15 years ago, um, when, uh, there were a lot of opportunities with, with capturing people’s attention and then directly, um, uh, getting them, um, to make a donation. So often, um, th- a model looked like this, so, uh, trying to capture people’s attention, going straight to donation.
Florian Engel: Um, and that used to work much better than it does. Uh, and for a handful of organizations and some supporters, this still works just fine. But if you think about the kind of attention that you’re getting on one particular piece of content, it might be- Be seen by, like, 20,000 people. Uh, but out of these 20,000 people, you’re only gonna have a handful of donations or a handful of actions or a handful of people who even, uh, actually, uh, uh, interact with you beyond just consuming the content.
Florian Engel: So all of these other people, we’re essentially losing them. What I’m trying to say is competing over attention is not everything. As fundraisers, we often think of, uh, of, of, uh, the way that we work, um, in funnels. So let’s … If, if we put that into, um, a typical sort of funnel, uh, what we could do, and this is a very common model that we use in, in most of our work, when it starts with attention, then you have some form of activation where people might also give you an email opt-in.
Florian Engel: This could be, uh, a petition like, uh, in the example of Care2 or a hand raiser or something else. Uh, then there’s some s- there’s an engagement stage, uh, where you are building the relationship with supporters and where, where supporters get to know you more. And then there’s a long-term commitment, um, at the end.
Florian Engel: So this is where you might, uh, be able to, to, uh, recruit, uh, regular givers or, um, have other sort of long-term, um, commitments from supporters. Obviously, uh, this is, this is just a model. Uh, but, uh, what this … If we … It’s, it’s a very useful one if you use this, for an example, for something like analyzing touchpoints with supporters.
Florian Engel: So the same, the same funnel, if you just, uh, put a plot out on, on sort of like a bit of a map, and every time, every touchpoint you have with supporters, um, is added, and this is an exercise that we do a lot with organizations, uh, you will quickly see there’s a lot in attention, things like online advertising, that there’s probably some social media comms going on.
Florian Engel: You might have, have, uh, dedicated staff for this or essentially, uh, resources that you spend, um, with, with, um, someone who supports you with that kind of thing. Um, and then, uh, most organizations have a monthly giving program, right? What some organizations do is they also have something on the activation layer, so like, uh, something like, um, a hand raiser with an email sign-up.
Florian Engel: We talked about opt-ins a lot. So yes, this is where, where people would also opt in to your email list, that sort of thing. But when you look at this map, and this is true for almost every organization that we, that we do this kind of exercise with, um, what you quickly see is there are either very few or no options, uh, for long-term engagement.
Florian Engel: Again, that very much connects to the last thing from, from the Q&A session, um, uh, from, from Rihanna’s talk- When people have kind of– y-you’ve, you’ve been able to capture people’s attention, then you might have a few, like a welcome journey or some kind of, um, initial, um, comms, but then people often drop off a cliff, and the next best thing that they can do with you as an organization is to, um, give a, make a monthly donation or make a second gift.
Florian Engel: So that is what we call the engagement gap. That is what I’m talking about here today. Now, we don’t have this much time, so, so I’m, um, I’m gonna kind of move on to the practical side of things. If you’re interested in the theory, in the frameworks, in the models that we use and all– and, and, um, pretty much like a deep dive, uh, I wrote a book about this exact same– this exact thing.
Florian Engel: So, uh, this has lots of tools in it, um, that will be, um, that, that are just available, um, and that allow you to kind of map out these, uh, supporter journeys over longer periods of time, identify where, where the gap is in engagement and what the challenges are within your organization when it comes to, um, actually, uh, getting, uh, get– building these long-term relationships with supporters.
Florian Engel: So if you’re curious, um, I’m launching this book with the Sheila McKechnie Foundation next month. If you would like t- an invite to that event, feel free, um, to, to sign up. Um, but I don’t wanna leave you with just a little bit of theory. Uh, the most interesting thing is always seeing that in practice, like what, what are organizations doing that you could be learning from?
Florian Engel: So, uh, how can we actually close this, uh, gap, uh, when it comes to engagement? The first lesson is to not just invest at the top of the funnel. So when we invest in attention and, and getting people’s attention, that is, uh, that is good and useful. But when we do that, we also need to invest in the steps that come afterwards.
Florian Engel: Otherwise, we’re losing out on a lot of this investment. And while we live in this attention economy and a lot of, uh, talk is about how can we even cut through because there’s so much going on, uh, we should really be thinking about the next step as well, um, and maybe shift some of that attention, some of that focus towards engaging with the supporters that we already have or that we’re going to, um, have and cultivating those relationships.
Florian Engel: So investing in supporter relationships and not just in getting new people in the door is, uh, the top level, uh, lesson here. Uh, one way that you can start thinking about that is when you look at your organizational objectives and your audience needs, where do they overlap? What is the sweet spot between these?
Florian Engel: What is it that your audience actually wants? Maybe they wanna be entertained, maybe they wanna, um, explore, um, the kind of impact that they might be able to have through you or with you as an organization, or they might have, uh, particular needs around resources or learning or something, something– whate-whatever, uh, their interest is.
Florian Engel: Um, and then of course, you as an organization have objectives, but the sweet spot is in the middle. So it’s not just trying to get supporters to do what we need them to do to reach our goals, it’s also about working out what are the audience needs, um, and, and, and how can we also give back. So one way to give back is to create interactive experiences and offer, offer ways to take action beyond just donating.
Florian Engel: So, uh, obviously, some organizations have, have an advocacy side where, where that might be interesting. Some organizations, um, d-don’t really do much advocacy, but, but they still have– might have a lot to give, um, and that’s often overlooked. And one of these ways, one of these formats, uh, that, that’s quite popular in that area, we, we call that engagement actions.
Florian Engel: So what I wanna leave you with in terms of very practical things, um, uh, ex-examples, uh, for– of engagement actions that I’ve personally found, um, really inspiring and really good So, um, here are three examples. Uh, these are all real-world examples, and you will see they are not about making a donation, but they are about cultivating the relationship and get- and, and building that relationship with supporters, and they could also be ways to actually, uh, um, increase your income, not just long-term.
Florian Engel: So the first one is making your impact a bit more tangible through localized experiences. So, uh, often we, we have– like the, the work that, that the organization does, there, there is a clear impact, but sometimes it can be very abstract or complex or like very technical when it comes to, to kind of communicating that back to supporters.
Florian Engel: Like what does that impact actually look like? So that’s why I really like this idea and this, this action from Trussel. So, uh, Trussel, uh, is essentially all about, um, ending hunger and hardship. So they have a lot of information, uh, about, uh, food banks in the UK and how much food was delivered to people in need.
Florian Engel: So they figured why not turn this into something a bit more engaging than just publishing the data. Uh, so what they did was, uh, they, they built an action, uh, where you can put in your postcode, and it will show you exactly how many food parcels have been delivered to people in that particular area. And if there’s additional information, it will also display that part.
Florian Engel: So this is very straightforward, but it means that the next time you leave the house, you’ll think about your neighborhood differently. Because often things like, um, hardship and hunger, that, that’s, that’s almost invisible to you day to day, right? Um, so I think this is a really, really, uh, good action to also remind people that this is, uh, a serious problem, and it’s also a serious problem where you are, and that just makes it much more, uh, relatable in a sense as well.
Florian Engel: So, uh, the, the experience is very straightforward. You land on a page, you put in the postcode, um, you see, you see the results, and then there’s also a secondary call to action. In this case, uh, originally, um, it was, uh, an email to MP action, but, uh, then they, they changed it to a, um, to a general sort of movement sign-up.
Florian Engel: But this could also be a donation page. So I guess my question would be what kind of data do you have that could be localized or contextualized? What kind of information does your organization already have that demonstrates impact? Or what kind of stories that can be made more relevant to the supporter based on things like the constituency they live in, the, the town they live in, or the area they live in?
Florian Engel: The second example I wanna share is, um, we call that, that’s like a category, uh, that we call send a message of hope. Send a message of hope is a kind of action that allows supporters to directly connect in a s- in one way or another with either, uh, the beneficiaries of your service, uh, th-that you’re delivering as a charity or maybe the, uh, the people, uh, that supporters wanna show some kind of solidarity with, um, that sort of thing.
Florian Engel: So, uh, the organization St. Mungo’s, um, uh, did something, uh, really lovely around Christmas. Uh, and this action has been, uh, re- like repurposed, um, o-over multiple years. Um, and the idea is you can write a Christmas card to someone experiencing homelessness. So this is, uh, notice this is not asking you to make a donation at that point.
Florian Engel: This is not asking you to d-do anything else. What you’re doing is you are writing a Christmas card, and you’re kind of showing that, that you care about someone, right? Uh, and I think that, that is often something that’s, that’s really overlooked, uh, when we think about, um, uh, people who are experiencing homelessness.
Florian Engel: And, and therefore, it- it’s one of those pieces of the puzzle where you can really say, “No, it’s not just about delivering, um, not just about, like, giving.” Of course, you need the donations, and the donation ask is really important, but there are also other ways on top of that, um, to, to allow the organiza- to, to allow supporters to kind of connect with the organization, connect with, uh, with the people th-that they’re looking to support, and they’re looking to, to help.
Florian Engel: Um, so this is really lovely. Uh, the Christmas– Uh, sorry, I should have mentioned that these, these cards were then kind of distributed, um, uh, in, uh, by, by the organization. So, uh, the, the actual messages were printed onto cards. So what is the version of sending hope for your organization? What is the– What, what is a way how supporters could directly connect to either people in need or the people that you serve or, um, other, or, or, like, sh-show their solidarity?
Florian Engel: Um, what are, what are ways that they can do that, that are meaningful? I’m not suggesting that, that, um, it’s just about, like, setting up a form where, where people say, “Yes, I agree.” Uh, this is about, like, writing personal messages. This is about an exchange. In an ideal world, there’s the– there’s like a feedback loop.
Florian Engel: There’s a clear exchange going on. And the third idea that I wanna leave you with is, uh, providing rich and personal content in a new format. So in this case, I, I’m not thinking about just, uh, the typical sort of content that we see on social media. I’m thinking about, like, much, much richer content, possibly long form, possibly, um, ideas, uh, that, that can be printed or that can be, um, handed over in various ways.
Florian Engel: So there, there could be lots of different, um, options here, but I really like this example from Shelter. What they have done is they’ve taken a personal story about eviction, about getting evicted, and what that actually means to your day-to-day life and what the ripple effects of that are, and they’ve turned that into a comic.
Florian Engel: So this is a really, a visually interesting and, like, well-written and well-produced piece of content. And what it does is that it kind of– If, if obviously, if everyone can imagine that, that, that losing your home is, like, really bad and getting evicted is also, like, it’s terrible. But what, what people are often missing is what does that mean?
Florian Engel: You have to spend so much time every week, uh, to, just to get your laundry done or to make sure that you’ve got food on, on the table. All of these little things that, that, that are all of a sudden so much harder and g- and, and require so much more time that it’s not surprising that you might lose your job because of it, right?
Florian Engel: So, um, I think these kinds of formats are really, um, underutilized. So, um, really, uh, not just, not just spelling it out, but, but actually, uh, creating content with it that’s, that’s engaging, that, that allows you to, to kind of relate to this person in a, in a much… and this story in a very different way. Um, and it’s not just like an abstract word.
Florian Engel: We always, we always lose ourselves in, like, policy jargon, right? Like, what, what does eviction mean? So what could you turn into a rich format that you can give to supporters? What is it that you can literally give to supporters that they want, that they might find exciting, that they might find, uh, that, that, that kind of, um, is, is entertaining or, or informative or something that, that’s a little more than just, uh, yeah, basically, um, giving them the usual sort of, um, uh, link to a page, right?
Florian Engel: So, um, these are the three examples that I wanna leave you with. Uh, and I wanna say like what– essentially, what, what will you do to close the engagement gap for your organization? We’re, we’re really curious to hear what you might be already doing or what you might be planning on doing. Um, and if you need a bit of, uh, inspiration, first of all, thank you, and, um, yes, we’ll share the slides and all of those things, um, and feel free to reach out.
Florian Engel: Um, but, um, if you are curious, uh, we also have a lot more ideas, uh, and, um, some– this, this is a free report that you can download, um, on engagement actions. So this is, um, this is really our way of kind of giving back. If you wanna, if you wanna, uh, read that, there are tons of ideas in there. We’ve also built a free idea generator that can help you come up with these kinds of ideas, um, that you can, that you can use.
Florian Engel: That’s, that’s also available, um, via the report. So with that, um, I’m, I’m looking forward, um, to questions, um, and, um, also happy to, to kind of have a bit of a discussion.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Hello. Thank you so much, Florian. There was, um, some thanks in the chat as well. Um, really appreciate you joining us today to talk about the engagement gap.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: I’m a bit of a theorist, um, so I would have loved- Mm-hmm … if we spent some time also going into theory, but maybe that’s next time. Maybe that’s next time. That’s, that’s a, that’s a long- That’s
Florian Engel: a longer, long, longer topic.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Yeah. A longer conversation. All right, I’ll, I’ll jump into the questions. Mm-hmm. The first one was: “Hello, Florian.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Um, thank you for this great session. I wanted to ask for advice on how to decrease the gap between audience needs and…” Mm, interesting. “Between audience needs and organizational needs because I guess the things that we, yeah, need can sometimes be attention.”
Florian Engel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, obviously that’s, that’s, that’s always a compromise.
Florian Engel: But what, what we do when we, when we design these supporter journeys or what we, what we, what we focus on is to really clearly map it out. Mm-hmm. Because only when you start mapping it out, you will realize that most of the things that you are doing are very much about you as an organization and the objectives that you need to reach.
Florian Engel: And of course, you need to reach your objectives. Mm-hmm. But what w- what we’re trying to say is when you have, um… And, and we always color-code these Post-Its, and we have a, like, so we’re very particular about, like, how we, how we also make that very visual. Um, you, when you notice that most of the things that you’re sending your supporters and, and are essentially asking them to do something for you-
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Yeah
Florian Engel: then maybe break that up a little bit and include something, uh, that, that is more about, um, like, either increasing loyalty, showing impact, um, more about some- give- giving something back, like an engagement action. And that, obviously I’m, I’m conscious that not every organization has the kinds of budgets to, to invest in these supporter programs in the way, um, uh, that, that, um, that some of the bigger organizations have.
Florian Engel: But- Yeah … what I’m trying to say is map it out, visualize it, and then you will see where you absolutely should be including some, some more, um, some more specific, um, things for your supporters. Yeah. But I should also say at this point, just, sorry, one last, one last, uh comment. This is exactly what I’m talking about, about the slightly more complex theory.
Florian Engel: Because at the end of the day, you will only really reach your objectives long term- If you also really have, like, audience-centered communications. So it’s often that, that short-term versus long-term reaching objectives.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Mm.
Florian Engel: And I obviously, yeah, that’s, that’s-
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Yeah. No, sorry. I was just … It’s just ’cause on the tip of my tongue.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: No, it’s okay. But I was just thinking, like, um, again, in, in the organization that I worked in, um, I worked in supporter experience and, like- Mm-hmm … a really big thing was constantly trying to balance. And I imagine that’s where some of this conversation, this question’s come from. But trying to balance that conversation internally as well.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Mm-hmm. Like explaining to people internally, um, and, and that kind of influencing buy-in part that you’ve got to do internally around- Right … you know, being able to, to, to meet my audience’s needs in this moment means that longer term I can meet the needs of the organization is, is, is a tricky one. For those of you who are looking for more on that kind of buy-in and influencing, just if that’s where that question came from, we’ve got the Art of Fundraising conference that’s happening next month.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Um, and there is a session, can’t remember who’s delivering it off the top of my head, but I’ll find it in the break. Um, and there’s a session that’s specifically about getting buy-in and influencing internally to balance those tensions between supporter needs, organizational needs, other department needs.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: So I think that will be a really good conversation, um, to have. But thank you so much for sharing as well, just that it’s about the short-term sort of versus, um, the, the long-term conversations.
Florian Engel: Thank you. That, that’s actually a perfect reference ’cause yes, what you’re saying is true. The challenges- Mm … are often how to actually align within the organization and, and how to- Always
Florian Engel: and j- just to also mention that, like, some of the, the models and frameworks in the book- Mm-hmm … deal exactly with that. Okay. Like how can you, how can you talk to people in other departments and align around that support experience? Um, so just, like if- That sounds ace … if there’s ever a d- if there’s ever a deep dive, yes, that’s exactly the, the challenge.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Wicked. So two actions from this. Mm-hmm. Head to the delegate bag everyone and download the booklet that Florian’s mentioned, uh, from More Onion. That’s gonna be super helpful with aligning with you in your organization. And if you haven’t already, book onto the Art of Fundraising conference that’s next month, um, because there will be an ace session about that.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Um, and if you’re a member, you’ll have that session in your on-demand library as well. So the next question we have for you, Florian, is we have an online board for leaving messages of hope, but we haven’t had attraction, any traction with this. Mm-hmm. How would you suggest getting more engagement for this?
Florian Engel: Um, I’m, I’m, um, without, without knowing in more detail, that’s always difficult to say. Like, how, how do you, how do you, uh … My, my first question would be like, how is it currently embedded? Like, how do you usually get people there? And the other question is, how do you then deliver these messages of hope?
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Mm.
Florian Engel: Uh, and, and is that communicated clearly? Um, what we are often seeing is that, like, something like a wall of hope, that I think that could be inspiring.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Mm-hmm.
Florian Engel: But, but, um, the question is, how is that experience like to actually leave a message? Is that all streamlined? Is that all, like, very easy to do? Um, do p- do people have to
Florian Engel: Sometimes I, I’ve seen this web- where people would have to, like, create an account to sign up to be able to leave a message, things like that. Yeah. So just make, make sure that it’s, like, really easy, uh, like signing an online petition. Um, and also that you’re sending emails to people and clearly explain how that’s gonna make a difference.
Florian Engel: Yeah. ‘Cause often what we do is we, we sort of throw something out there, but, and we expect people to, to instantly see how that’s gonna translate into some form of impact. Um- Yeah … but spelling that out.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Yeah.
Florian Engel: Yeah.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: I, I, I like that answer around the friction as well. Like, anything we can do to, to eradicate any of that kind of friction for the supporter can sometimes be that.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Um, but also, like you said as well, like make … I wonder if there’s something also in, um, again, it’s back to that question around audience needs versus organizational needs. Like, where did, I wonder where the idea came from for you to do the messages of hope? Because sometimes we see internally we have these ideas that we really think would work really well for us- Mm
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: um, and really think they drive traction. And I know I can become, like, super invested in the ideas that I come up with. Even at Fundraising Everywhere, I’m like, “This is gonna be great for our members.” And, and actually it, it is, like, it isn’t something they respond to. Mm. So maybe also going back I would advise as well and checking your, your insights from your supporters, having those, you know, the conversations you may have had with supporters or surveys or things like that, where you’ve heard from them things that they would- Like, and if you haven’t had those conversations, maybe that’s a good next step to start talking to your supporters and find out some insights about what might work for them so that even though it might be an idea that you really love, um, you can ensure it’s something that, that is actually meeting a need, um, of your supporters.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Okay, last question. Uh, what results have you seen, Florian, from increasing engagement actions that we can use to propose this work in our organization? So I guess they’re looking for-
Florian Engel: Yeah …
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: some evidence for the buy-in- Yeah … to get the, the, the funding, right?
Florian Engel: Um, so, um, I should start by saying that, uh, it- th- that there’s often, like, a bit of a, it, it’s, it’s often a long tail.
Florian Engel: Mm. So, so you’re not gonna see- And that, that’s also what I meant about, like, the long-term, uh, objectives versus the short-term. We, we are, we’re often in this cycle of having, like, to deliver on short-term objectives, obviously, um, short-term revenue- Mm-hmm … um, and all of that. So, um, the, w- we have, we have numbers, uh, from various organizations where we can, where we’ve, uh, run split tests to show exactly, um, what, what the sort of second gift rate was or, or- Mm
Florian Engel: how many people actually signed up to an o- to, to a regular gift, um, either with or without these kinds of deeper engagement, um, asks. Mm-hmm. Um, but what I would, and I’m obviously the, we have some of these numbers as, as evidence for, for each of the organizations, but, like, I’m, I’m always, uh, skeptical of, like, um, uh, suggesting that, um, something that’s been successful with one organization can directly be translated.
Florian Engel: So I understand that you need to build a business case, but I would be a little hesitant to put one number in there and s- and then work towards it. Because realistically, what you wanna do is you wanna start with your own numbers rather than look at benchmarks- Mm … and then see how can we improve it. So, um, that way you can, you can be much more strategic about where to invest.
Florian Engel: Mm. So if you, if you look at your current journey and your current numbers and, uh, and again, where, where are supporters falling off, where, where are you currently kind of failing to, to get that long-term engagement from them-
Multiple Speakers: Mm …
Florian Engel: then you can build a c- a business case around that specifically and s- and see whether- Like how, how you can address that.
Florian Engel: Yeah. Um, and I think that’s much more strategic than, than saying, um, I, I m- o- obviously I could be saying something like, “Oh, we’ve, we’ve seen a, um, a, a 40% uptake in, in second donation rates,” but, but that’s not … You know what I mean? Like that’s, that’s not what I’m- Yeah … I’m looking
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: for- And I hear that … you know, faster.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: And I think sometimes maybe, uh, you know, uh, in addition to what you said I, I totally agree, sometimes it can be good to have both though, can it? Like to have your own, but also to say like, “And actually here’s just some examples from other organizations. Not saying that we’ll achieve the same, but here’s some, some examples.”
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Mm-hmm. So I wonder if, um- Okay … there’s some case studies I know that has been shared in the delegate bag. I was gonna say- Yes … that might help with that.
Florian Engel: Yeah. So, uh, yes, uh, we, we did share, uh, one specific case study that also included the St. Mungo’s example. Uh, I p- Perfect … most, most of the, most of the data were about, um, about other aspects of the work.
Florian Engel: So, um- Mm-hmm … but, but it’s, it’s sort of a … Like I’ve said, the, the, to, to, to know the exact numbers you have to- Yeah … run the test and you have to run it for a really long time.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: Yeah. So. Testing. I know. Testing and learning. Testing. Testing and learning. That, that thing that, um, we all want investment for, um, – Yeah.
Cam St-Omer Donaldson: It’s important … um, and, and definitely need to be brave to do. So, um, thank you again Florian, and thank you everyone for your questions.
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Jade Cunnah: Thank you so much. See you next time. Bye