In this episode of the Fundraising Everywhere Podcast, host Sarah Crowhurst — Founder of digital fundraising agency Hynt — sits down with three brilliant sector leaders ahead of her own talk at Pizza for Losers, the event that celebrates what happens when things go wrong.
Sarah is preparing to speak about professional burnout and a knock to her confidence that left her questioning her future. To calm her nerves and sharpen her thinking, she chats with:
Henry Rolling (Flying Cars Innovation Agency) — who shares how his first Christmas appeal at the Refugee Council went out without a return envelope, why failure is easier for some people than others, and what cracking an apple with your bare hands has to do with persistence.
Lesley Pinder (Compass) — who spoke at the very first Pizza for Losers about burnout and missing the warning signs. She reflects on the “vulnerability hangover” of opening up on stage, and why having your team in the front row cheering you on can change everything.
Harpreet Kondel — who opens up about being the only person of colour in the room for 32 years, the roles she was never offered, and why she refuses to let others define her worth.
Together, they explore vulnerability, self-belief, bias, and why talking about failure might be one of the bravest and most important things we can do.
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Transcript
Jade Cunnah: Welcome to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast, your go-to place for fundraising tips and inspiration. Love what you hear? Get more insights straight to your inbox. Subscribe to our email list for exclusive fundraising resources, early access to training, special discounts, and more. Just head on over to fundraisingeverywhere.com/podcast to subscribe.
Jade Cunnah: Now, on to today’s episode. Enjoy.
Sarah Crowhurst: Hi, and welcome to the Pizza for Losers podcast, brought to you by Fundraising Everywhere. I am your host today, Sarah Crowhurst, and I am the founder of digital fundraising agency Hint. So in our sector, we love to celebrate the big wins, but we actually rarely talk about what happens when things go completely wrong, which is why I’m a huge fan of Pizza for Losers, and I’m definitely excited to be speaking at it very soon.
Sarah Crowhurst: So as I’m starting to pr- prepare my own story, professional burnout, at the upcoming, um, talk it’s actually feeling quite daunting. It’s hard to be vulnerable, um, in front of a lot of people. Uh, in order to calm my nerves and also think about exactly what I wanted to share on stage, I decided I needed to chat with three brilliant leaders in our sector.
Sarah Crowhurst: So I want to get their wisdom on navigating career setbacks and how to regain your self-belief. First up is Henry Rolling from Flying Cars Innovation Agency. So Henry reminds us that sharing our failures builds authentic connections. But what actually happens after you open up on stage? Hi, Henry.
Henry Rowling: Hi, Sarah.
Henry Rowling: Lovely to be here with you.
Sarah Crowhurst: Thank you. Uh, so I wanted to have a chat with you because you spoke at the very first Pizza for Losers, which was way, way back in 2019. Um, and I was actually there and I remember you speaking, and I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, all these people are so brave, um, for getting up there.”
Sarah Crowhurst: Um, I’m actually gonna be speaking at Pizza for Losers next week, and I’d really love to hear about how you went about choosing your specific failure. Can’t actually remember what you talked about. They do have photos from it. And I know that we all have multiple things of failures that we could include, so I’d be really interested to hear how you went about choosing what you spoke about, um, and then any type of prep that you did for it.
Sarah Crowhurst: So I’m not sure if you’d done lots of public speaking and things at that point. Um, but yeah, I do a lot of conferences and talks, so I feel fairly okay about standing up there. Um, but I think it’s difficult to talk about failure when you get up there. There’s a lot of vulnerability. So yeah, would love to hear more about, from you about your, your topic.
Henry Rowling: Amazing. Thank you. Yeah, it was, it was quite a long time ago. Um, I was actually looking at the video. There’s some video footage of it online if you wanted to go and look at it, which you probably don’t. But, um, so 2019, we’d just literally set up Flying Cars. Uh, I’d left my role at The Children’s Society and s- taken a brave step, and I had talked to Nikki before we’d left about the concept.
Henry Rowling: So I was, I was quite bought into it at that point. And I think I applied to be a speaker. Uh, I was lucky enough to get accepted onto it, but it was like, it was the first speaking event I’d done as a k- I suppose co-founder of Flying Cars. So I was quite- Not concerned, but it was a big d- it was a big deal.
Henry Rowling: And I think whenever you’re talking publicly, it doesn’t matter how well … Actually, the better prepared you are, the less daunting it is, I think, and that’s something that I quickly realized. Like, you can, you get some people who are brilliant who can wing stuff and are just natural storytellers, but that’s not most of us.
Henry Rowling: Um, so I, I would say the more preparation you can do for any kind of public speaking, the more relaxed you can then go into it. But at this point I hadn’t done a lot. I’d done a couple of … I’d done some quite biggish things internally, uh, like the Children’s Society and Crisis, where I’d worked before. But this was, this is, yeah, it was quite a, a, a big audience, and I was, I was quite nervous.
Henry Rowling: Uh, especially ’cause it was, like, representing our new business and wanted to put a good foot forward. Did quite a lot of preparation for it. Thinking about the s- types of failures I’d had in my career to date. So that was, you know, as everyone’s failed on lots of different things. I think finding things that haven’t gone well is not that hard to do.
Henry Rowling: But things that you want to talk about publicly is, is less easy. Um-
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah, and I, I suppose it’s also thinking about the learnings that you maybe want the audience to take away as well, because there’s lots of failures that happen, but trying to choose something that is, I don’t know, significant enough that people can take something from it as well, I suppose.
Henry Rowling: Yeah. Yeah, and I think also that’s totally, yeah, totally true. So it needs to be relatable and also kind of believable. And a- I didn’t wanna pitch it like, “Oh, here was this failure, but actually it turned into a massive success.” It’s like, it’s actually just a failure. But obviously what you learn from it is super important.
Henry Rowling: So I had a, I had a large back catalog of things to choose from. But also, we were, an, at that point a new agency to the sector, and so I had to think about actually what do I wanna put out there in terms of things that, uh, I’d fucked up in my career before. Uh, so that was a sort of added dynamic to it.
Henry Rowling: In terms of sort of talking about failures, I think there’s, there is a definite dynamic across it. So the… I think if you’re… There are certain types of people that are more able to fail than others. So I think I’ve thought about this topic of failure quite a lot, and I think if you’re a white man, it’s quite acceptable for white men socially to fail.
Henry Rowling: They’re given a much easier ride than other types of people. So I think as a, a white male, as I am, like, I get an easier… It’s easier for me to talk about failures, I think, because doors are generally open anyway because of the society we live in. So I do think when we’re, when we’re talking about failure, y- you do have to acknowledge that it’s easier for someone like me to talk about it, um, and not be judged, whereas other people might be really heavily judged.
Henry Rowling: That was, uh, something that I thought of then, and I still think is a really important aspect of this topic. Um, so if you’re, I don’t know, if you’re a, a kind of, um, Black man or a Black woman, is it kind of, like, really easy for you to talk about stuff that’s gone wa- uh, wrong? I think there’s… it’s it comes with a lot more baggage, and I think that’s a massive thing that we need to be aware of.
Henry Rowling: Yeah, just something that I feel passionately about.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah, no, definitely. And that got really deep, really quickly. And just in terms of kind of, like, yeah, we don’t always… And it’s good that you acknowledge that as a, as a white man in this sector as well, because- Mm … that is something that I will be talking about in terms of how, how people treat you in the sector and, and having that self-awareness as well and, and recognizing, yeah, that there’s different gender and there’s biases towards people.
Sarah Crowhurst: So I think that’s a really, really important that you raise that, so thank you.
Henry Rowling: No problem. I was think- when I was thinking about this, I was thinking about someone like Boris Johnson, who’s, like, basically failed multiple times at everything he’s done, but he’s still very much, reached the pinnacle of politics.
Henry Rowling: But he’s, uh, his first job out of university was at The Times, and he lied. He put an unattributed, a liar as a source against, uh, someone’s name uh, made up a quote and got sacked from that job, uh, which was his first job out of university. That, that would probably have ended a lot of people, but obviously he failed upwards continuously throughout his career.
Henry Rowling: It wouldn’t have happened if he had been a woman of color, so as, uh-
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah.
Henry Rowling: Yeah.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah. So what was your topic that you
Henry Rowling: spoke about? So, uh, we, in terms of preparation, we wanted to take a bit of a creative angle with it. Like, we’re an ideas agency, didn’t wanna just get up and just talk, I guess. So we did actually, I had a bit of video content in it which, well, I watched it back this morning.
Henry Rowling: It was me trying to crack an apple with my bare hands which is something you can do. Uh, so basically you’ve got an apple, and you basically try and break it into half. And the idea about having this in our talk was around persistence. So I think when you’re i- innovation or launching new ideas and you’ve had some failure, you have to persist because not everything’s gonna work.
Henry Rowling: If everything works, you’re not kind of pushing things hard enough. So the idea behind cracking the apple is it’s hard, and, like, just keep at it. I did actually man- I watched the video back this morning and it looked quite insane. Um, so I managed to crack an apple with my bare hands, which involved me using my finger as a saw and then banging the finger to split the apple.
Henry Rowling: So that was a bit of video content in there. I also did some crowdsourcing of failure stories from the crowd, so got them to text me their own failure stories, which was quite nice, and then wrote a blog up afterwards. The main bit of failure that I was talking about was Two things. So firstly was when I went to a job interview and then realized that it was in quite a posh building for a, a big organization and I was wearing really scruffy trousers.
Henry Rowling: So I had to pop off the bus on the way to the interview and change, and buy some trousers from the Oxfam charity shop in Angel, which I think unfortunately is no longer sadly there. It used to be quite a good, a good charity shop there. So I changed trousers on my way to the interview. So that was a, a s- slight failure to prepare.
Henry Rowling: The main kind of work-related one I spoke about was when I… My first ever job at the Refugee Council, and I’d somehow ended up in charge of the direct marketing program not qualified to do it. And, uh, the first Christmas appeal that I sent out, which is a big deal at every single charity, it’s, like, where most of the warm income comes from.
Henry Rowling: Uh, I really didn’t know what I was doing at all and prepped the print the print work for the appeal, and somehow it had gone out without a BRE, the return envelope, being printed. And so essentially we’d sent our Christmas appeal. It was quite a nice thing, and then all of the replies from the supporters started coming back to our main office in Ferndale Road in Brixton, and they were coming directly to the office.
Henry Rowling: So, like, the first thing I heard about that was the facilities manager coming over and going, “Hey, Henry, like, we’ve got all of these envelopes. What do they do?” He’s like, “We’re getting swamped by checks.” Uh, and I was like, “Ooh, they’re not supposed to be coming here.” Checked in with the printers.
Henry Rowling: Obviously, the printers denied all responsibility. To be fair, it probably was my mistake. Um-
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah, whose responsibility was that?
Henry Rowling: I think it was ours ’cause we hadn’t sent them the print work-
Sarah Crowhurst: Okay …
Henry Rowling: for the BRE.
Sarah Crowhurst: And obviously they’re not checking over things and making sure that- I think- … everything’s in
Henry Rowling: there.
Henry Rowling: I don’t know. There, I think there were probably multiple failures in this, uh-
Sarah Crowhurst: Brilliant.
Henry Rowling: What I learnt from that is that you, if you are in direct mail, you need to be quite meticulous in your preparation and, uh, attention to detail, which I quickly learnt. Yeah.
Sarah Crowhurst: Very good. And what happened with all the income? Presumably you had to send it to, for processing elsewhere? Yeah,
Henry Rowling: the appeal actually did quite well.
Henry Rowling: I think it was like a, it was a
Sarah Crowhurst: pretty- Because there was no BRE
Henry Rowling: It went pretty well. I think a lot of the income came in. I think we might have beaten target because we had a small donor file. It’s quite a, a sort of niche audience, but they were very committed. And so they just had looked up the
Henry Rowling: They knew the address, and they sent it all in. So I think the income was fine, but it was, like, 10 days of, 10 days of panic. I also had another fail when I was working at Crisis, and we had a, like, an ethical gift around a Christmas pudding. Harrods I think had donated to us loads of really expensive Christmas puddings, which we then sold as an ethical gift.
Henry Rowling: But we weren’t a logistics company, and sending Christmas puddings at Christmas that which don’t go through the letterbox aren’t that- Isn’t that great, Anne?
Sarah Crowhurst: The failure to measure the letterbox.
Henry Rowling: It wasn’t my idea. And so at one point I was taking taxis across London hand-delivering Christmas puddings to people.
Henry Rowling: And then after Christmas we came back to a lot of very angry emails of people who basically paid about £25 for a Christmas pudding and hadn’t received the Christmas pudding, and they were like, “You’ve ruined our Christmas.” So that was good.
Sarah Crowhurst: Oh, wow. So okay, raising money, ruining Christmas Anything else to add to that?
Henry Rowling: I’m basically the Grinch of Christmas.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah.
Henry Rowling: No. I mean, that, that Crisis one didn’t make it into my Pizza for Losers chat. I think it was probably deemed too, uh, made me look too bad to be included in it, so yeah. Yeah. Let’s, let’s cap it off there.
Sarah Crowhurst: But now- Now I- … it’s gonna be out there. Now everyone will know about Christmas puddings and Crisis, so opened up a new can of worms.
Henry Rowling: Now I don’t fail at anything at all.
Sarah Crowhurst: Of course you don’t. I mean, you’re in innovation. That doesn’t fail.
Henry Rowling: Exactly. Everything works.
Sarah Crowhurst: Very good. Okay. Well, you’ve definitely made me feel better about, um, speaking. I think, yeah, I’m probably talking about something that’s a little bit more vulnerable, but I think it’s, it’s good to have a mix of these different types of speeches as well and stories.
Sarah Crowhurst: Um, and I think, yeah, definitely preparing and going over what I wanna talk about. It’s like a story that’s cemented in my head, but I think saying it out loud is quite different. Yeah. Yeah.
Henry Rowling: It is. But I think you should always be a bit nervous when you’re talking in public. If you’re not, you’re kinda not taking it very seriously.
Henry Rowling: And I think from what I’ve read from other people that do a lot of it, y- you know, people who get paid massive amount for keynotes, you know, they always get scared. You always get scared. The more prep you do, the better you know your content, the easier it is to deliver, I think. And if you are sharing something vulnerable, then of course you’re not gonna feel great, but it does mean that you’ll really connect with the audience, and they’ll be like, “Okay, this isn’t like the usual kind of flannel.
Henry Rowling: This is actually, you know, a real story.” And then you’re giving them a lot more value.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah. Great. Super. Well, thanks, Henry. Um, that was really insightful, and we got some bonus content.
Henry Rowling: Absolutely. Pleasure. Really nice to … chat. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Crowhurst: Great. Thanks, Henry.
Henry Rowling: Cheers.
Sarah Crowhurst: Nikki has spoken about vulnerability hangover, so this is something I was really keen to explore further, so I invited Lesley Pinder from Compass to talk about this with me.
Sarah Crowhurst: Hi, Lesley Pinder.
Lesley Pinder: Hi.
Sarah Crowhurst: Um, so I wanted to have a chat with you because you spoke at the very first Pizza for Losers, uh, way, way back in 2019. Mm-hmm. And I actually just chatted with Henry Rowling, who you also shared, um, a stage with. And with him, I just chatted around, um, how he prepared for his topic, how he chose it.
Sarah Crowhurst: Um, and yeah, I’d love to hear about kind of how you felt after, um, you delivered your Pizza for Losers talk. So could you tell us a little bit about what you spoke about and, yeah, what happened after you delivered it?
Lesley Pinder: Yeah, sure. So, um, when I did Pizza for Losers, the very first one, I ended up talking about burnout- And how I had failed by not spotting the signs, I suppose, and sort of over, um overcompensating for a whole load of things.
Lesley Pinder: Um, so that’s what I ended up speaking about, which is quite interesting, ’cause when I got there, like, other folk were, were talking about, I guess, slightly less personal stuff. So, but I’m very glad I did it. I’m very glad I did it.
Sarah Crowhurst: Amazing. Yeah, ’cause I, I guess I’m a little bit concerned just in terms of I’m obviously speaking not necessarily about…
Sarah Crowhurst: I- it does have a little bit of burnout, but, uh, it’s centered around what, someone said to me and how it made me feel. Um, so there is, like, that element of being vulnerable on stage. But also, I know that other people are just talking about, campaigns and, and it’s really good for the sector to hear those sorts of stuff.
Sarah Crowhurst: I think it’s great for the sector to hear all types of failures. Um, but yeah. Obviously, how did you feel when you were up on stage talking about… I mean, I was there in the front row, and I’ve got a picture of you in your tartan, tartan pants. I think that was the first outing of them, if I recall.
Lesley Pinder: It was, it was.
Lesley Pinder: I needed them. Tartan’s my go-to when I’m feeling terrible. I put on my tartan power trousers or my tartan suit to give me faith. Love it. Good person. Um, I do remember it quite vividly, because my team were there, uh, from the British Red Cross. Oh, okay. And I hadn’t been there for that long. And so looking out at your actual people that you line-manage and talking about failure was quite…
Lesley Pinder: It was, uh, initially I was like, “Oh, no.” But they just sat and smiled at me and grinned at me the whole way through. Um, and so that’s one of the biggest things I remember, is like, oh, you can do this. You can talk about failure, and you can still lead, if you know what I mean. So- Yeah … that’s what I… That’s one of my most vivid memories, is having that team being there for me, um, and it feeling like that your team can be there for you as much as you should be there for your team as their boss.
Lesley Pinder: Um- Yeah … so yeah. Yeah. That was one of the biggest things for me. What would-
Sarah Crowhurst: I think- What would your tips be for kind of, like, presenting when you’re feeling very vulnerable about the topic?
Lesley Pinder: I mean, definitely having that person, having a couple people in the room that, that you can look at.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah. That
Lesley Pinder: are your, like, allies and your pals that will, so, you know, not Josh, obviously, ’cause he’ll just make you feel worse. But, like, having someone that, that you know will be, like, that you can look at and that you know really well. And actually, initially, when I first looked out and saw them, it made me a bit more scared. But then actually, as I went on, they were who I spoke to.
Lesley Pinder: And so having people there that you know get it, um, really helped. And knowing that if you’ve experienced it, 100% somebody else in the room will have, and that it’ll make a difference. And if there’s something… I was also like, “Why am I talking about this?” Like, “Why have I chosen this?” And I realized that if I pick…
Lesley Pinder: There was a reason I needed to talk about it. I… And it, it wasn’t really to overanalyze what that reason was, but if that was what I felt I needed to talk about in that moment, then there was obviously a reason for it. So I just had to trust-
Sarah Crowhurst: So did you feel like you had a bit of a, a release once you had kind of like shared that story, um- Yeah
Sarah Crowhurst: about burnout? Yeah.
Lesley Pinder: I did, yeah. I mean, it, it comes with mixed emotions, ’cause I, you know, I had a lot of feel… Like, I was talking about an experience I had working at a specific organization who actually I still felt very positive about, like-
…
Lesley Pinder: And so I had this whole thing of “Oh, I don’t want to make them look bad, and I don’t want to make me look bad,” and, you know, there’s all of that.
Lesley Pinder: You still have that even though but actually, a- after you’ve said it all out loud and the world doesn’t end, you’re like oh, okay. It’s actually fine.”
Sarah Crowhurst: And how did… Obviously I’m gonna, I’m gonna talk about something in like leadership and my experience there. How did your team take that? ‘Cause you kind of touched on that, that obviously your team were in the, were in the crowd and they were watching as well, and you still wanted to be seen as a, a good leader even though you were sharing kind of like your burnout.
Sarah Crowhurst: How did- Yeah … how did they take it, and were they supportive of it?
Lesley Pinder: Yeah. I mean, yeah, they were amazing. I think- That, and then we went not long after, maybe six months after, seven months after we went into COVID. And I think we just had a really psychologically safe team. Like, it’s the, the most… It’s a team where I’ve never felt as comfortable ever before, and I don’t think ever since.
Lesley Pinder: I mean, I work on my own now, so I g- hopefully I feel psychologically- Mm-hmm … safe with myself. Maybe not. Um, but no, I think it I think it made a difference to our dynamic as a team because it kind of set the stall out for how we all wanted to be with each other, and it’s just how they were anyway.
Lesley Pinder: They were just excellent humans, so I was just really lucky. I mean- Yeah … that they even wanted to be at an event like that, I suppose. They, they’re like, “Oh, that sounds like the sort of event I would like to go to,” I think speaks volumes anyway. So yeah. Yeah. Another one was then.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah.
Lesley Pinder: Great. And then, yeah, I was gonna say I think one of them spoke at Pizza for Losers, but no they didn’t, they went on to speak at IBOTUL anyway.
Sarah Crowhurst: Ah, okay. Cultivating a group of speakers anyway.
Lesley Pinder: Yeah, I know, don’t they?
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah.
Lesley Pinder: Like, forcing them onto the stage.
Sarah Crowhurst: And I think obviously, like, talking about leadership and vulnerability, I think it’s important that people see you as human as well- Mm-hmm … when you’re leading. Um, we all face the same kind of challenges in life, and I think to be able to see someone who leads, um, also navigate their way through that or have those same experiences is also really important for a team to see.
Lesley Pinder: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think it was good they, they can see themselves, but I, I do think it was… Yeah, it, we had good vibes in our team before that. Can’t beat it. Yeah, so.
Sarah Crowhurst: It is. Is there anything, any kind of advice that you’d give me going into my talk?
Lesley Pinder: I would say the one thing I didn’t expect was how I would feel after.
Lesley Pinder: And whilst I was like I enjoy speaking and, but it was quite nerve-wracking. But a- and I was, like you say, there was a bit of a relief to have it said out loud, and that it, it seemed to tol- it seemed to land really well with people. But then straight after, I had a couple of people come up and talk to me about what it meant to them and their experiences, and I very quickly realized I did not have the bandwidth for those conversations.
Sarah Crowhurst: Oh, really? Okay.
Lesley Pinder: And I felt quite bad about it- Yeah … because I was like, “I have just made you think about a thing in your life that you want to now talk to me about, but I actually cannot.” talk to you. Yeah. Which I feel really bad about. And, and I basically had to leave.
Sarah Crowhurst: Okay. And
Lesley Pinder: I was like, “Uh, I’m done now.”
Lesley Pinder: And I did, I just did a, I did a good old sneaky goodbye and just sort of snuck out. Um, I was like, “I can’t, I can’t talk about this to people.” And I, I think e- everyone’s different. I’m also an introvert, so when s- when I have big feelings, I don’t feel better by talking lots and lots to people about them. I have to go away and be in a quiet space.
Lesley Pinder: Whereas others, I think, really thrive from then having a conversation, but that, that just wasn’t me. And I felt really bad. It was Andy, it was actually Andy King that came to speak to me afterwards. Mm-hmm. And I really remember vividly thinking, “Oh, God, I really wish I could talk to you about this. I really can’t.”
Lesley Pinder: And I literally just ran away. I have apologized to him for it since. He didn’t even notice, actually. He didn’t realize that’s what happened, ’cause I’d obviously covered it up well. But yeah- … I think that’s the only thing, is just to be prepared that you might need a bit of space afterwards, which is hard when you’re in a room of 100 odd people.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah.
Lesley Pinder: Yeah. Um, that’s the on- that, that was what surprised me, um, was that I, it really… I was like, “And I’m done. Goodbye.”
Sarah Crowhurst: Um, yeah, I think I’ll definitely stick around, so I definitely wanna see everyone else speak. And yeah, I think, yeah, I think it’ll be a lot to obviously process feelings afterwards. Mm. But I won’t know until, until I’ve done it, I suppose.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah. So those are very wise words from you, um, Lesley, and thank you so much for your- No worries … for your time to chat about this. And,
Lesley Pinder: uh, yeah. My pleasure. And yeah, I’m really proud of you doing it. It’s, um- Yeah … it is an amazing event. Yeah. But it is scary at the same time.
Sarah Crowhurst: For real.
Sarah Crowhurst: Mm-hmm. Cool. Well, thank you, Lesley.
Sarah Crowhurst: And we’ll chat soon. Next, I sat down with HarpsÂ
Sarah Crowhurst: Condell. Um, Harps was my fundraising director many, many years ago, um, when I was just a couple years into, uh, working as a digital fundraiser, um, at Barnardo’s. So my final guest that I want to welcome on is Harpreet Condell. Hi, Harps.
Harpreet Kondel: Hello, Sarah.
Harpreet Kondel: How are you doing?
Sarah Crowhurst: I’m very well, thank you. So as you know, I’m gonna be speaking at Pizza for Losers next week. And I’m gonna be sharing a story about how my confidence was really knocked by someone, and I lost a lot of self-belief, um, in terms of what I thought I could go on and do. And so this is part of leaving a role where I was burnt out and had a, not a very nice conversation with a director who kind of weaponized, um, some of the time off that I’d taken.
Sarah Crowhurst: He told me that he’d never liked me, and apparently I’d never liked him, um, and that I wouldn’t make it as a freelancer. Um- Wow. So I wanted to… Yeah. It was a lot to process, and it’s gonna be obviously difficult to talk about that in front of people.
Sarah Crowhurst: Um, but I’d really… As, as someone who I really admire in the sector, and obviously you were my director of fundraising back in 2011- Mm
Sarah Crowhurst: um, and I’ve seen you at the peak of your career. Um, but obviously you’ve probably faced hurdles to get there as well. Mm. And I was just wondering if that’s something that you would be open to talking about, um, with me today?
Harpreet Kondel: Yeah, I mean, definitely. Gosh, you know, the stories that I hear every single day about the challenges of our sector are actually quite alarming really.
Harpreet Kondel: And like you say, you know, I’ve definitely been on my own journey. You know, when I started out as a fundraiser 32 years ago, I was often the only person of color in the room. And I would never see anybody else that sort … a- from any ethnic minorities, never mind an Asian ethnic minority like myself.
Harpreet Kondel: And so therefore, you know, there’s been many times where I’ve experienced imposter syndrome. Um, and interestingly enough, throughout my career in different roles, I feel like I’ve not had things offered to me that perhaps I’ve seen other colleagues that have come in, um- Mm … after than me, after me have been offered, uh, you know, sort of promotion or, you know, being a head of department or being a director.
Harpreet Kondel: And actually, e- even as a freelancer now, I still often don’t find myself being offered director roles. Most of the time the roles that I am offered to do are sort of head of roles. And some might say, “Well, that’s probably because there’s not that many director roles available in the sector as an interim.
Harpreet Kondel: There’s many more head of,” which I also accept. But I think there are things that do hold you back. But my view has always been I’m not going to let those things hold me back. And, and I’m not gonna allow other people to knock my confidence. Certainly, when I was younger, I probably did … It did have a greater impact on me what people thought of me.
Harpreet Kondel: And it just made me laugh when you said to me, you know, y- I was your director and I’m somebody that you actually admire because I don’t think of myself as pe- somebody that people admire. But certainly, the teams that I’ve managed throughout my career, people have always said to me that they found working in my team you know, really, not enjoyable necessarily, but it was hard work.
Harpreet Kondel: I mean, I wouldn’t say any of our time at Barnardo’s was an easy time, but actually, you know, we w- kind of all knew what we were working towards, and we all gave it our best. Um, and we certainly tried to have fun along the way. Uh, but actually, you know, it’s really difficult when you’re trying to do a good job and you have other people constantly trying to undermine that or telling you that you’re not doing a good job.
Harpreet Kondel: And I think the only thing you can do is almost separate yourself from what they’re saying to you or what they think about you, and just have that belief in yourself, and just keep going forward. You know, I know you’re a brilliant digital fundraiser, you know. I’m actually really proud of the fact that you came into my team And, you know, worked in my department.
Harpreet Kondel: And now I tell everybody, you know, “If you’ve got any digital work that needs doing, go to Sarah. She’s brilliant.” You know, “She knows what she’s doing.” That is nice. Well, yeah, exactly. So, you know, just as w- just while there are people out there who probably don’t think you’re great, there are people out there who think you’re also really good.
Harpreet Kondel: Yeah. So, you know, you just have to disregard those people because most of the time they’ve actually got a problem themselves. So I don’t take much notice of them. Um, I’ve certainly experienced bullying throughout my career as well. Yeah. Um, I’m, I, I don’t think I’m the only one. And I also think there’s burnout.
Harpreet Kondel: You know, everybody’s experiencing burnout. I think we’re working in an incredibly difficult market at the moment. And fundraisers are being put under more and more pressure every single day. When I say fundraisers, I don’t just mean IG fundraisers, I mean fundraisers across the board. And people like digital fundraisers as well in there as well.
Harpreet Kondel: You know, we’re all expected to do more with less. And so, you know, sometimes that can affect your confidence as well because you’re just feeling like, “Well, am I actually gonna be able to do this? Am I resilient enough to be able to deliver this? And if I’m not, can I actually speak up and say, ‘I’m finding this really difficult and I actually need some support,’ uh, and ask for help?”
Harpreet Kondel: Because that can also be a challenge, especially if you’re working in an environment where there is a lack of help or lack of support. But y- one of the things I also learned during lockdown actually was I’m … I always found it very difficult to ask anybody for help. Um, so I know I’m a classic case here.
Harpreet Kondel: I’m quite independent, and if I need to get something done, I’ll just get my head down and do it. But for the first time during COVID, I came to an end of a contract, and I actually had to ask for help. I actually reached out to my network to see if anybody had any work because there was no work, and a few people did come back to me.
Harpreet Kondel: And that made me realize, actually, as a whole, there are lots of good people in our sector who are willing to support and are willing to help you achieve. And, you know, if you could go out and ask for that help, and if you feel, uh, it’s not weakness to ask for help. It, you have to have confidence to ask for help, but actually there’s no harm in it.
Harpreet Kondel: And most of the time people will step up, and they will support you. So I think there’s many things I’ve just covered in that little answer there that I’ve given. But I think really your own resilience and your own mental wellbeing, you have to strengthen that because there’s always gonna be people out there that telling you that you’re not good enough, and somehow you have to kind of almost put up a shield and protect yourself from that and don’t let them undermine you.
Harpreet Kondel: And it’s easier said than done because I’ve certainly felt that when other people have made me feel that way. Um, and there were many times in my career where I felt like I wasn’t doing good enough job. But now when I go back and I reflect on that and having been doing it for quite a while, I’ve realized actually those reflections were not about me.
Harpreet Kondel: It was more often the organization itself and the people- Yeah … that work within it
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah. It’s often, like, the culture, um- Yes … that we’re in. And I think what you said about kind of like it’s difficult to ask for help sometimes- Yeah. Yeah … or to, for that to be taken as a weakness that you need help, but actually it isn’t.
Sarah Crowhurst: No. And I think that just made me reflect on something, like, more, more recent in terms of, like, actually reaching out to my network of friends in, in the charity section, being able to lean on them a little bit more. Mm. Because as much as about, it’s about us being resilient and you know- Not taking, um, yeah, it’s not taking criticism from people.
Sarah Crowhurst: There’s, but there’s also kind of like a culture there that needs to change as well. Yeah. So as much as we can build our resilience through our, our network and conversations and things, that’s definitely helped me with, like, mental health and how I respond to things. But also I think there’s still that element of that, that culture piece that probably needs to change as well.
Sarah Crowhurst: And I think we- we’re, we’re a sector that talks about equity- Mm … but our internal workplace cultures, you know, often tell a different story as well. So I think, yeah, you also touched on this, that, like, fault often lies in, in culture and not your capability.
Sarah Crowhurst: Mm. I think it- it’s reassuring people that it’s often not you, it’s someone else who’s got their own battles that they’re potentially fighting as well and taking it out on you.
Sarah Crowhurst: Mm. Um, but you don’t need to pull other people down to get ahead yourself- No … either.
Harpreet Kondel: No. And you shouldn’t have to pull other people down, but unfortunately there are always those that will. Yeah. And somehow you just have to allow it, ask, hope that it doesn’t affect you, and that’s the challenge, isn’t it?
Harpreet Kondel: That, that’s con- that comes from your own s- inner, inner strength, isn’t it, you know? And I think a lot of us don’t have that inner strength. You know, I’ve had to find that myself. But I think, you know, there is resilience training out there. And there is, there is more work that I’m certainly trying to do at the institute about creating a better workplace environment in our sector.
Harpreet Kondel: You know, there’s just no room for people who are bullies. There’s no room for people that are putting other people down to get ahead. We should be working in a way that is supportive. And you’re absolutely right, about equity. We’re very good at talking that game. We’re very good about being a supportive work environment, but actually when you look at the evidence, it’s just not there to back it up.
Harpreet Kondel: We’ve, you know, we’re rife, the sector’s rife with bullying, the sector’s rife with burnout, which is why we’ve had this mass exodus of people who are leaving and going into other sectors because they feel like they’re gonna be treated better. And if you’re not treated better, well, do you know what?
Harpreet Kondel: Actually, I might be getting 20% payout into my pension, so great, I’ll take that, and I’ll put up with not being treated so well because actually at least I’m getting some money into my pension pot- Yeah … or, you know, or more into my pay packet, you know? So not only are we probably being paid less than our counterparts in other sectors, but we’re also being treated badly at the same time.
Harpreet Kondel: So there is work that, you know, one of the panels that we’ve got looking at in our new strategy is about how do we shift that dial and change our culture as a sector to be a better culture. And actually we should be leading example of how people ought to behave. And I would say probably historically- The sector was a much better place to work in.
Harpreet Kondel: I feel like in the last few years, I feel like it’s definitely got worse. And I don’t know whether it’s probably, it could be a combination of many things, but I wonder whether the financial pressures that everybody’s feeling from top down in an organization, all the way from a board of trustees, it just cascades that pressure.
Harpreet Kondel: And as that pressure cascades, some people don’t handle it very well, and then they just start behaving in a way that’s not appropriate- Mm-hmm … you know, in bullying or putting pressure, using pressurizing tactics on people. So I don’t, I don’t know what the rationale is for it or why people are doing it, but I think there’s definitely something that we need to do as, as a sector to really shift.
Harpreet Kondel: And I definitely mean not, you know, people in junior roles, I mean people in senior roles within the charity sector really need to take the lead on this conversation, I think.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me, Hart. So it’s really, really, um, interesting. I think we’ve still got, like, a really long way to go in the sector, but like you said, there are groups out there who are doing things.
Sarah Crowhurst: So it’s, it’s COF one you said where you can get resilience training
Harpreet Kondel: Yes. Yes. And I also saw, I also did see Nikki’s, um, message the other day about, you know, making sure that you take the time out to do things for yourself. Um- Yeah … and actually put yourself first. And you know what? There’s nothing wrong with saying, “Actually, I need a bit of time out to go and have a break.”
Harpreet Kondel: Um, make sure that you’re using your annual leave. I cannot tell you how many organizations I go into and people have not taken a single week out of their annual leave, and suddenly they’re scrambling around at the end of the year trying to use it all up. Everybody needs to have those regular breaks so that you’ve got that time to just reset and not be in that challenging work environment under pressure constantly.
Harpreet Kondel: Because, you know, the work that we do, we really care about doing it well because at the end of it, there’s beneficiaries that need our support. So often, when things don’t go well, fundraisers can take it to heart. And it’s about, you know, allowing yourself a bit of flex and, just saying, “Okay, you know what?
Harpreet Kondel: That didn’t work out as well as it could have done, but that’s not the end of the world. You know- Yeah … we’ll try and learn from that and do something different next time.” Um, so I think s- being a little bit easier on yourself is also a thing that we could probably do as well.
Sarah Crowhurst: Yeah. Love it. Thank you, Harps.
Sarah Crowhurst: All right. Really appreciate your time. Thank you so much.
Harpreet Kondel: No worries. Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Crowhurst: So listening back to these conversations, there are definitely a couple of things that really stand out for me. So we have to practice self-compassion and go easier on ourselves, and that setbacks are part of the lesson, and we can learn from them.
Sarah Crowhurst: So like Harps reminded us, we can’t let professional challenges or a toxic workplace define our self-worth. I think the fault really lies in culture and not necessarily our capability. So I think it’s something that we start talking about. We talk about this openly, and we should build a sector where leadership actually matches our values as well.
Sarah Crowhurst: So massive thank you to Henry, Lesley, and Harps for their wisdom and generosity today. And thank you for listening. If you faced a setback this week, just remember, you are so much more than your worst day at work. Head over to the Fundraising Everywhere website for more resources, tools, and also upcoming sessions.
Sarah Crowhurst: Until next time, be kind to yourselves.
Alex Aggidis: Thank you so much for listening to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. If you’re enjoying this podcast, why not share it with a fundraising friend? And if you would like to give us a little like or subscribe, it really helps more fundraisers like you find us. Thank you so much.
Alex Aggidis: See you next time.