Transcript

[00:00:00] Multiple Voices: Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. , you don’t need to add me in there.

[00:00:31] Jade Cunnah: Welcome to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. Your go-to place for fundraising tips and inspiration. Love what you hear. Get more insights straight to your inbox. Subscribe to our email list for exclusive fundraising resources, early access to training, special discounts, and more. Just head on over to fundraising everwhere.com/podcast to subscribe Now onto today’s episode, enjoy.

[00:00:59] Josh Leigh: Hiya. 

[00:01:01] Nikki Bell: Hello, how are you? 

[00:01:04] Multiple Speakers: Good morning. 

[00:01:05] Nikki Bell: Lovely to see you both. Thanks so much for joining us for the podcast. Um, it has been a while, actually. It hasn’t been a while since I’ve talked about pizzas and losers. It tends to be a daily thing, um, the moment. But it’s so nice to have you both on, um, and, and be able to chat to you, uh, about it.

[00:01:25] Nikki Bell: Uh, we’re gonna get stuck. Straight in because why wait. Oh wait. Do you wanna say as a return and loser, uh, and, uh, pizza, do you wanna introduce yourself and, and say hi? 

[00:01:40] Josh Leigh: Hi, I’m the Returning Loser, Josh Lee. Uh, great to see Nikki. Matt, nice to meet you. Um, I’m Josh Lee. I’m the co-founder and director of Hint.

[00:01:49] Josh Leigh: We’re a digital fundraising agency based out of London, but not only that, I am also the loser in chief. I am one of the, the past hosts of Pizza Per Losers. I’ve been so excited to come back this year and host Pizza for Losers in London this year as well, which is gonna be huge. It’s gonna be amazing.

[00:02:06] Nikki Bell: You’ve been the only host for Pizza for Losers. 

[00:02:08] Josh Leigh: Have I been the only host? I didn’t wanna say that in case it wasn’t true. I didn’t wanna lie right here to all the public. Uh, but that’s amazing. Oh, it’s one of my favorite events to host as well. It’s so different and unique and I’m so excited to talk a bit today about what, like, why I love it so much.

[00:02:21] Josh Leigh: Basically. 

[00:02:22] Nikki Bell: Thank you Josh. And we’re reclaiming loser. Like it is a good thing. Like it is. Absolutely. That’s it. I mean it in a very positive and supportive way when, uh. When, when I, when I say that and also when I invite speakers to say, can you come and talk about being a loser? Like, it’s, it’s all good, it’s all positive vibes.

[00:02:40] Nikki Bell: Uh, and Matt, you are a new loser, so welcome to the Yes. Best club in town. 

[00:02:46] Matt Middler: I’m very honored. I did, I did worry that not being near London, that I wouldn’t get to enjoy, uh, the benefits of being an official loser, but this is. Uh, I did actually, I was delivering a training course at Northeast Scotland College on, um, celebrating failure.

[00:03:03] Matt Middler: And I used Pizza for losers as a great example of, um, one way that organizations could embrace and they absolutely loved it. Um, so they, they wanted to do cupcakes for mistakes or something else. They were trying to think of anything. 

[00:03:17] Nikki Bell: Oh, we can use the pizza thing. It’s fine. That’s what it’s there for, but I might add cupcakes for mistakes if I’m writing that down.

[00:03:25] Josh Leigh: Yeah, honestly, take it. 

[00:03:27] Nikki Bell: So, Matt, yeah, do you wanna share a little bit about yourself as well, then as a, a newly fledged loser? Um, just so, um, we, our listeners know who, uh, who they’re chatting to. Yeah. 

[00:03:36] Matt Middler: So, uh, my name is Matt Midler. Um, I run, uh, I’m a, uh, my coaching practice, so my freelance transformative coach.

[00:03:42] Matt Middler: Um, most of my clients are new and experienced leaders within the third sector in the uk. My background is in fundraising, so I was a full-time fundraiser for a number of charities across Scotland, um, for 13 years before I really trained as a coach. Um, but now I do this full-time, uh, as well as a few other bits and bobs.

[00:04:03] Matt Middler: Um, so yeah, really interested in this, especially having, um, more recently got into delivering some training around, um, uh, embracing failure. So I’m excited for this conversation. 

[00:04:16] Nikki Bell: I love that and I’m gonna do what I do in every conversation where I’ve sent you questions in advance and now I’m probably not gonna ask any of them and let’s, oh, thank God 

[00:04:25] Josh Leigh: there were a lot of them I wasn’t reading.

[00:04:28] Nikki Bell: Yeah, I think, I think they might. Yeah. It’s, there’s a lot to, to work from, but, we’ll, I think for some people they might be listening to this and not know what pizza. Loo is all about, and they’re like, what on earth have I tuned into? Um, so for anyone listening, uh, that isn’t aware, pizza loos is, I’ve seen it referred to as an unconference.

[00:04:46] Nikki Bell: Um, so we’ll, we’ll use that. It makes sense. Um, and it’s an event that is held to break away some of those walls and those feelings, uh, that we have to always like, get things right in our work, in our professional lives, and even in our normal lives, and just connect together. In a safe, supportive, and fun space and go actually.

[00:05:09] Nikki Bell: We don’t all have our shit together. Sometimes we do get things wrong and actually if we wanna progress and see some growth, then it probably is gonna happen and it is necessary to happen. So, um, speakers get up and they share in around 20 minutes or so, a story from their career where they have failed and then people clap and say, you’re amazing.

[00:05:30] Nikki Bell: And then we all eat pizza. And Matt, you do get to, uh, enjoy, um, the event this year because we are streaming. The London event on July 10th through our platform for our members. So I’m not sure if you’re a member, but even if you’re not as a coach, you probably should have it. Uh, so we’ll get Yeah, yeah. No, I’m, yeah.

[00:05:47] Nikki Bell: So, yeah. Oh, amazing. So yeah, even, uh, if you’re not in London on July 10th, what we’re about to talk about today, uh, you can store, get a taste of, there’s probably gonna be a lot of pizza puns in this chat, I imagine. Um, so yeah, that is pizza for loses. So Josh. For you, like in 2019 when I first asked you to be involved in it, what for you was the reason why you were so excited about it?

[00:06:09] Nikki Bell: Like what’s the change that you really wanted to see in the sector when it came to embrace and feel? Yeah. 

[00:06:15] Josh Leigh: Yeah, I mean, I think it was, as you said, it’s an unconference and I think I, I just wanna jump on that word because conferences are basically just bragging rights and, and this is something that’s bragging about what we failed at, not what we succeeded at.

[00:06:28] Josh Leigh: And I think that is so different. There’s talks that we heard in the 2019 event in London, and then we took one up north as well, and. Talks that have stuck with me and I still quote back to people, and I talk about some of the stuff I heard at Pizza for Lose within that year more than I talk about anything else I’ve ever heard at a traditional conference.

[00:06:45] Josh Leigh: And so I think for me it was this opportunity to do, I guess an unconference or something that was the exact opposite of what everything else in the sector is about, which is covering your mistakes. Bragging about what did work, pushing under the rug, what didn’t work, if the marketing campaign didn’t work well, it was a branding campaign.

[00:07:01] Josh Leigh: Then it really kind of just tore up the rule book on what that was and said, wait a minute, no, let’s just get a bunch of people in a room and actually talk about what, what didn’t go right, which I think was, you can learn so much more from that and you can, from just replicating what worked for somebody else.

[00:07:15] Josh Leigh: So I think it just created a really different space, and it felt like that. 

[00:07:19] Nikki Bell: There were so many people, I think there was two or three where their talk was about them emailing their deceased list. So if anyone’s listening and they’ve done that, it’s very common. What were the talks that stuck out for you?

[00:07:31] Nikki Bell: What? What’s kind of the stuck in your mind? Just to put you on the spot, 

[00:07:35] Josh Leigh: honestly, I’m just having PTSD about stories, about emailing deceased list. One of my clients a few weeks ago swapped their stop file for their send file and email, like it happens. Stuff like that happens, and they called me freaking out.

[00:07:47] Josh Leigh: I said. It’s not the end of the world. We’ll just get back on the horse. Everything’s fine. Um, but no talks that stuck out for me. I have to say it was, uh, from the charity sector, we had the lovely Leslie Pinder. I, I always will talk about Leslie Pinder forever. She’s the supporter experience, uh, consultant.

[00:08:01] Josh Leigh: But at the time, I think she was at the British Red Cross and she used a series of RuPaul’s Drag Race. Gifts to explain how she went through burnout, how she carved out space to allow herself the time to recover. And she came back to her work and back to her career and back to her network stronger than ever because she actually took the time to recover from burnout.

[00:08:19] Josh Leigh: She didn’t see burnout as a weakness, she, she felt mixed feelings about it. But then eventually got through that and then shared that with everyone. And again, you’re not gonna go to a conference and hear someone talk about that so publicly or kind of confidently in the way that we heard it at Pizza for losers.

[00:08:35] Josh Leigh: But one more thing on that I wanna say is Nikki, you did a very good job of not just pulling in charity sector speakers. We also had speakers from outside the sector and there was one woman, I can’t remember her name, but she was a, I don’t wanna say a failed pop star, but I can’t think of how else to say it.

[00:08:49] Josh Leigh: But she was from the music industry and had tried time and time again to to launch a career, and she just shared really, really kind of candidly about how she tried. It didn’t work, she tried, it didn’t work. But again, she got back on the horse. She tried again. So it’s a lot to learn from both in the sector and outside the sector in 2019.

[00:09:06] Josh Leigh: And, and again, we’ve had several events since then. The virtual one we did during COVID. This year’s lineup looks amazing, but those are two that really stuck out for me from the first ever conference we did, or Unconference Pizza loos we did. 

[00:09:17] Nikki Bell: That was Alexis Strum, uh, who has, yeah, launched a new single, uh, recently, maybe, maybe no longer failed.

[00:09:27] Nikki Bell: But we also had, um, Ross from the Future Heads, obviously Northern, uh, a friend of the, the family. So he came on, uh, and was sharing about creative projects. And we also had, I know it’s not outside of the sector, but it’s not in a charity, but we had, uh, the head of ops from the Great North Run who, uh, the.

[00:09:45] Nikki Bell: Hospital attended. The Great North Run flew over the side of a cliff, so Phil happening. I don’t think there was anyone in it. Um, but yeah, hopefully you didn’t cover that part. But yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s almost just a relief to hear that it’s not just you and for me. Yeah. And Matt, you probably get this a lot with your, your coaching clients as well.

[00:10:05] Nikki Bell: Mm-hmm. Sometimes you’re sitting there and you’re like, why can I not do this? Like, everybody else seems to be doing it. ’cause all you see, not, I don’t mean you specifically, I mean you as in me and everyone listening, um, you see, you know, the LinkedIn posts where people are talking about a win. You see people standing up at other conferences and talking about a case study that’s worked and you know, he, you hear podcasts where people are like, oh yeah, this is meant, so you are like.

[00:10:28] Nikki Bell: Ah, why am I not getting this right? Is that a common thing that you’re getting, like with some of your clients as well and what, what’s the kind of vibe in the sector at the moment for failure and embrace and what happens? 

[00:10:42] Matt Middler: Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s, it’s very easily to feel isolated when you’re just surrounded by the good news, and I think in particular in the fundraising world, you know, there is such pressure to deliver and to get it right.

[00:10:55] Matt Middler: Because we’ve got to raise the money, we’ve got to do the work, and there’s such pressure to do it. And I, and I think, um, you know, quite often there’s the fear of failure is actually the fear of the shame of not succeeding. Uh, you know, and, and the assumption that everybody else is succeeding and, and because we don’t talk about the failure.

[00:11:14] Matt Middler: So actually that’s why it’s so wonderful to hear about this event and celebrating failure in such a positive and enthusiastic way. I’m working with a lot of clients at the moment through, um, through Think Consultancy and, um, their new recruitment arm actually. Um, and what I’m noticing actually is, uh, uh, a a lot of people who are starting in new roles, putting themselves under a lot of pressure to essentially be as good at the job as you would’ve been.

[00:11:46] Matt Middler: The one that you just left as soon as you’re in the door in your new role, you know, and so a lot of the conversations that I’m having with, and there’s a lot of change in the sector at the moment, um, with people who are starting in new roles, is helping them to identify that actually they’re holding themselves just standard that you would expect you to get to within.

[00:12:05] Matt Middler: Two, three years of being in the job and having done a couple of annual cycles. Um, and yeah, just helping people to give themselves permission to be on that learning journey and to know that you won’t know it all from day one. Um, and 

[00:12:22] Nikki Bell: it’s so common as well, like you do coaching for, uh, fundraising everywhere members.

[00:12:26] Nikki Bell: Yes. Um, and I know before we started working with your cohort, uh, it was myself that did all of those calls with them, and that was such a common thing that came through. They were like, oh, I started, started this job a week ago and I feel like, you know, I’m struggling. I’m not getting it. Like how, what kind of conversations do you have with people?

[00:12:43] Nikki Bell: What tips do you give them? 

[00:12:45] Matt Middler: And in particular, you know, I’ve taken over from somebody who’s been doing the job for 30 years and I feel like a failure and I’ve been doing it for two months. Yeah. 

[00:12:53] Multiple Speakers: You know, 

[00:12:55] Matt Middler: it’s like, um, yeah. I mean, and I, I think some of, some of the key things that help people in that situation is to be talking about it.

[00:13:04] Matt Middler: So to understand what your needs are, to communicate your needs to your boss and to your colleagues around you. Um, and to, you know, so asking for help. Asking questions, being curious. You know, when we are in that place of shame and we’re, um, concerned about how we look and what people think about us, we’re not able to be in that curious space where we can ask the questions and um, investigate and fill in the blanks because we’re trying to project this.

[00:13:36] Matt Middler: Image of, um, uh, you know, I’ve got this, you know, this confidence. Whereas actually I think people need to embrace that vulnerability and say, listen, I’m new through the door. I don’t know how things work. I don’t know who our donors are. I dunno, you know, how, how this, there’s a new database to me, so I, it’s gonna take me a while to get my head around out.

[00:13:54] Matt Middler: I, I’m capable. I need a bit of time and I need a bit of space. So I think being able to ask, understand what you need, and to be able to ask for it, I think is, is really, um, is really powerful for people. Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:09] Nikki Bell: I love that. And I think it’s crucial then hearing what you’re saying, that people are entering spaces and workplaces where conversations like this.

[00:14:18] Nikki Bell: Are had, you know, they are normalized. Um, and creating those, you know, failure safe workspaces. And that’s something that we do at Pizza for Losers as well. So we have people, uh, at this year’s event who we’re talking specifically, uh, about like leadership approaches and how we can do that. But attendees, both online and in person, are gonna get a menu.

[00:14:37] Nikki Bell: Of resources so that they can take it away and, and go back to their team as well. So there’s gonna be like some helpful things in there. Some graphs and, and some, you know, reports and stuff. But then there’s gonna be some memes. ’cause I feel like balance is important. So Josh, I feel like you might have some good memes to send my way.

[00:14:54] Nikki Bell: Literally 

[00:14:54] Josh Leigh: making notes. Making notes right now. We’re ready. 

[00:14:57] Nikki Bell: I’ve been saving them in an Instagram folder as I’ve been streaming over the year. My favorite one is a, a, a guy who just walks towards the camera and he goes, are you stressed? Don’t be, and, and then he walks away and 

[00:15:10] Josh Leigh: that’s what we need is fundraising leaders to just send that to their team once a week.

[00:15:14] Josh Leigh: A

[00:15:18] Nikki Bell: helpful. Um, how do you, because yeah, you folks work with charities, but you know, you have worked in teams before. Uh, what for you makes, uh, failure supportive workspace? Like what can teams be doing then Matt and Josh to bring people into some of them where they can relax into it and just kind of get started straight away?

[00:15:40] Nikki Bell: Matt, I will come back to you just to continue on from, from what you were just talking to first. 

[00:15:45] Matt Middler: Yeah. You know, I was reflecting on this, I was reflecting on throughout my career. Um, and what came up for me more clearly was it was less about something that I’d done with my teams, but actually the experience that I had and thinking about that sort of psychological safety.

[00:16:01] Matt Middler: And what that feels like when you have that in particular from a manager and I left a job, I was actually managed out of my first full-time fundraising role. Um, had a very difficult, very difficult ending in an organization that I worked in, um, and lost all of my confidence. I was physically ill from stress.

[00:16:22] Matt Middler: Um, and it was a pretty horrible experience and. Begrudgingly after, um, some, uh, great encouragement from a friend of mine in the sector, begrudgingly went on to a sole fundraiser role, my first ever sole fundraiser role, um, which I ended up loving. It was such a, such a great organization. Um, and I, I just remember the chief executive, a guy called James McBain, who’s now, um, he’s now retired.

[00:16:49] Matt Middler: He was this gentlest of giants. He was like a, a heterosexual Stephen Fry, you know, some very,

[00:16:58] Matt Middler: you know, quite intimidating when I first met him, but just the loveliest guy ever. And he would say to us, everybody in the organization, you know, project managers, administrators, everybody, he would say to us all the time, I am the least smart person in this organization. I am only here to make, to try and help you.

[00:17:17] Matt Middler: Excel because you guys are so talented, I can’t even handle it. And he just stepped back and he allowed us to be our best version of ourselves. And I’ve never experienced anything like that in my career. It was just magical for me. It just enabled me to, to just grow and to develop into the role. And I just had confidence to try things, you know.

[00:17:42] Matt Middler: Um, and yeah, just, just that, just knowing that, that somebody’s got your back. So yeah, psychological safety and that, and that’ll mean different things for different people. Um, but yeah, that was a, just such an i impactful moment for me. I went from having convinced myself, I don’t have what it takes to be a fundraiser, it’s just, I, I just, I can’t do it to actually, you know, going and thriving in, in one of the most successful roles I’d ever been in.

[00:18:08] Matt Middler: Um. 

[00:18:11] Nikki Bell: It’s amazing that you had that experience, I think from previous pizza for loses lessons and, you know, this failure journey that I’m on, I’m still on it, you know, even these, these past six years. ’cause I, I started this project ’cause I couldn’t work it out. And I was like, okay, well here’s this fun way that I can work it out and eat pizza at the same time and help other people.

[00:18:31] Nikki Bell: Um, and that ego and knowing your own insecurities as a leader is really important because often how you respond and react to somebody else’s fail. Is clouded by that insecurity that you have about yourself. Yeah. So for example, if you are. Uh, leading a team and you’re not as great at ig, maybe as you should be.

[00:18:51] Nikki Bell: If someone comes with that fail, you go, oh, this reflects badly on me and makes me look like I don’t wanna do. So I think once you understand more about, um, how your thoughts are process, and then when someone comes to you with a fail, you can respond to it rather than react. And some people. I great at that.

[00:19:11] Nikki Bell: Some people could maybe use a little bit more work in that. Um, but yeah, it was like a big kind of, uh, epiphany moment for me, um, as I’ve been hearing from people. Um, and hopefully, you know, more people are in that group that you’ve had, um, and that, you know, uh, hopefully that’s. What we have more of in, in the sector.

[00:19:31] Nikki Bell: Uh, what about yourself, Josh? ’cause obviously you’re working a lot in digital and you’ve worked in, in various places on various campaigns before. So you obviously see moments where things don’t work out. What have you seen leaders and teams do that have encouraged people to pick up, learn, and, and move on?

[00:19:48] Nikki Bell: Like, what’s the tactics and strategies there? Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:51] Josh Leigh: Well, I think I, I definitely echo what Matt just said around creating a, a, like an environment that allows people to feel good about themselves and such. But I think it’s also, it’s communicating that, and I think that having that environment is one thing, but one thing I’ve always tried to do as a manager and a leader, but I’ve also really respected in some of the managers I’ve had over the years is just be really clear with your communication.

[00:20:10] Josh Leigh: So if it is a safe space, say to people, this is a safe space. Go and try that thing. And I think I got a really good taste of that actually. Um. Similar to Uni and to Matt as well. I’ve, I’ve done a mix of sort of charity side roles, a mix of agency side roles, but I actually left the sector for a couple of years to work at a Tech for Good startup called, which is a search engine that plants trees with the rad revenue and they follow the guidebook of the startup culture, which is Radical Candor, which means kind of transparent, clear communication.

[00:20:39] Josh Leigh: If handled properly. It is not a bad thing sometimes it is. Um, and 360 feedback and, and a lot of other very specific startup culture things. And I was this little like sort of duck outta water paddling over into the startup culture. And I had people there giving me 360 feedback and my first three months that was so candid and I was shocked and I was terrified and I thought I’d failed.

[00:21:01] Josh Leigh: But actually, once I got into that culture a co a couple of years later, I came to see that actually clear direct. Sort of communication is key. That is how you create that space that allows failure and allows experimentation. And, and at the Cosia we had that very startup style culture of if you’re not failing, you’re not trying anything.

[00:21:19] Josh Leigh: And it’s, it’s something that I’ve tried to do and kind of brought with me from a cosia and tried to bring back into the sector. If you’re not bombing, if you’re not making mistakes and you’re, you’re not actually trying new material. That’s kinda the big take home message there. And I think that a lot of charity sector leaders and fundraisers may feel safe in, in the stream that they’re in or the space that they’re in.

[00:21:37] Josh Leigh: But that, that there’s a point where we really have to say, actually no, you need to try something new and if it flops you just try the next thing after that. And I think I got a lot from working at de Cozi or about the need to communicate that if, if, if it’s something that’s felt, it needs to be said as well.

[00:21:49] Josh Leigh: So it’s, I think you can create that safe space. But Matt, the story you were telling there, I was thinking, yeah, that person took the time to sail. I’m creating this space for you. And that’s what creates that space, that radical candor, I think we need much more of in the sector, rather than making assumptions or not, not feeling it or not saying it or not saying to someone, Hey, I would like to have the space to make a mistake.

[00:22:10] Josh Leigh: Um, but yeah, I think that’s, that’s kind of something I learned at a cozier and I kind of try and bring back into the sector with me, which is there is a space for a bit more sort of radical candor and clear communication about what your expectations are on people. One thing I’ve also really learned is, is kind of no one’s sitting there waiting for you to fail, and no one’s really gonna remember what you, I’m just gonna say, fuck up.

[00:22:30] Josh Leigh: Sorry for the French language, Nikki there. But, um, no one really remembers what you do wrong. People remember what you do, right? This is really, really strange. People remember the best thing they saw or the last thing they saw. They’re not sat there dwelling on the mistake you made. They’re actually dwelling on the good stuff you do, or the last thing you did.

[00:22:45] Josh Leigh: That’s, that’s, that’s all there is to it. So I think, um, it’s a combination of those two things and I really, I think, learned that at a. From, I had a fantastic manager there, the CMO, Hannah Wicks. She’s now actually a coach and a consultant. She’s kind of taken some of that and brought it back into kind of women and queer people across the industry.

[00:23:01] Josh Leigh: But that is, um, probably the biggest thing I’ve learned in my career. And I learned a lot of that in a startup, which is great. Uh, very different culture, but I think we can learn a lot as a sector. 

[00:23:11] Nikki Bell: And most people are probably sitting there thinking about their own mistakes anyway, when they’re going to bed at night.

[00:23:15] Nikki Bell: It’s not your fails going through their head. It’s Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We’re all in our own own little bubbles. 

[00:23:24] Matt Middler: We’re just beating ourselves up. 

[00:23:26] Nikki Bell: Yeah. Well, isn’t it? And I think if we have more like authentic conversations, um, the more I use the word authentic, it’s. Seems less authentic, but there’s like literally no word honest maybe is what I can use.

[00:23:38] Nikki Bell: Mm-hmm. Like if we all just shared this stuff with each other, which obviously is the intention of pizza for losers, it, we do start to actually then go and, and see, see progress. So in 2019, when all of the, the setup for pizza for Losers was happening, I was experiencing probably the worst. Kind of moment in my career in terms of my wellbeing.

[00:23:59] Nikki Bell: I was working in a space with, with and with, with people where I wasn’t feeling fulfilled and I wasn’t feeling uplifted. So naturally I went to people who I trusted and looked up to for help. And you know, in those conversations they were giving me really practical advice, but they were also sharing with me.

[00:24:16] Nikki Bell: Their own stories. And I thought, well, if I didn’t come to you and ask this and have this conversation, I wouldn’t have known about it. So bringing it out into, uh, the open is, um, it’s, it’s really important, especially now. There’s so many things, Matt, you should mention there about people going at new jobs and changes.

[00:24:35] Nikki Bell: There are tons of changes happening in teams right across the sector. You. We’ve got restructures, we have, uh, massive, you know, priorities and channels changing. Some people are finding it harder. Some people are thriving, but then they’re not sure really what to do with that. So they’re, mm-hmm. Yeah, there’s just a lot going on right now, and I think these, these conversations are so, so, so important with that.

[00:24:58] Matt Middler: There, there’s something amazing about what you’ve done with Pizza for Losers, because what it sounds like is you’ve created the space that you needed and the hope that other would also benefit from it. Right? And so when I moved back to Aberdeen a few years ago, in order to go self-employed, my fundraising career was in Edinburgh.

[00:25:15] Matt Middler: Um, capital of Scotland, lots going on, and, but I couldn’t afford to go self-employed and stay in Edinburgh. So I came back home to Aberdeen and I was terrified. Um, and in particular I’d gotten into cold water dipping, and there was a men’s group down there called Edinburgh Blue Balls. Um, and so I came back up to Aberdeen and myself.

[00:25:34] Matt Middler: I’m gonna be isolated. I’m gonna be depressed. I’m, you know, I’m gonna move back in with my. My parents temporarily. You know, this is, it felt like a real failure actually, even though it was a step forward. Um, and I created a, a men’s stepping group because that’s what I needed. I wanted that friendship and that experience like I’d been having in the, in the Edinburgh blue balls.

[00:25:54] Matt Middler: I wanted to have that up here as well. Actually in the past couple of years, it’s, you know, we’ve got now got 80 members. We’ve got people who said that, you know, the supporting network has saved their life. And actually, it sounds like this is what’s happened in, in, in Pizza for Losers. You know, you create that space based on what you need.

[00:26:10] Matt Middler: And I, I think if more people could understand what it is they need and be brave enough to go out there and. Ask for it or, or try and create that space where they can get it. It’s almost like being the person that puts their hand up. They’ve got a silly question, but everybody else was thinking the same question, but didn’t have the bravery to put their hand up and ask it.

[00:26:29] Nikki Bell: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And what, you said something really important there as well, but you said it really fast, but you, you said it felt like a failure, but it was actually a step forward. Did you catch that? I, 

[00:26:39] Josh Leigh: I just. I just wrote that down and I was about to pick Matt up on that as well, because I think that’s one of the, the most important things about pizza for losers is that people go in and lead with their failure and then by the end of their own 20 minute session, they’re even kind of having a light bulb moment and they’re like, wait a minute.

[00:26:54] Josh Leigh: That was several steps forward. It’s just really hard to see that a step forward when it’s happening. You kind of have to look back in the, in the rear view mirror and see that it was a step forward, which is a real shame, but it’s something that. I think pizza be, Luthers can give attendees that light bulb moment in the room.

[00:27:10] Josh Leigh: But we just need to more people to have that light bulb moment rather than see the forward step in the rear view mirror. It’s, it’d be really amazing if people could see that something is a forward step. The time is happening. I. Yeah. 

[00:27:21] Nikki Bell: Yeah. When you’re in it and it feels like afire, it’s impossible to go.

[00:27:25] Nikki Bell: This is such a great learning moment for me. This feels amazing. It’s kind of like that dog on fire. This is fine. Me, isn’t it? Yeah. After 2019. You know, I found myself in a horrendous situation. Like I was also jobless applying for jobs, not getting them, lost one job, uh, to one of my friends actually. And I just remember like, just sobbing, uh, uncontrollably.

[00:27:47] Nikki Bell: But without that horrendous moment, fundraising everywhere wouldn’t have existed. ’cause what I would’ve done, I. Was just got back into another job and followed this career path that I thought I should be following, because that’s what career progression is, right? Um, but without that space to actually go, what do I wanna do?

[00:28:03] Nikki Bell: And then again, creating a space that I’ve needed through FE as well, um, it wouldn’t have existed. And like, you know, look where it is now, six years later and helping loads people and, you know, I have lots of freedom and creativity. So it, it was genuinely for the best, but in the moment, yeah, that was bloody horrible.

[00:28:20] Nikki Bell: Mm. Um, so you are both coming to this year’s event, virtual and in person. Although Matt, I would love you to come in person if you’re able to make it down, but I haven’t driven past Aberdeen, uh, last month. It’s very far away from London. So virtual is also fine 

[00:28:37] Matt Middler: far, but you know, maybe in the, maybe in the future, maybe at some point 

[00:28:40] Nikki Bell: we’ll get you down as a speaker, I’m sure.

[00:28:42] Nikki Bell: Um, what are you looking forward to from this year’s event? What’s you, what he’s excited about? 

[00:28:48] Josh Leigh: Is it wrong to say the pizza? Is it wrong? Like, can I just say I’m really looking forward to the pizza? I, I obviously there’s so much more about the event, but the pizza is always so good. 

[00:28:58] Nikki Bell: Uh, so last time we ran outta pizza because I thought, alright, I bought these like, um.

[00:29:04] Nikki Bell: Was it like 32 inch pizzas or something? And the slices were huge and I thought no one’s gonna take more than one. And then people were coming away with like files and they run out, honestly, fundraisers 

[00:29:15] Josh Leigh: at a free meal, you’ve gotta note fundraisers at a free meal. 

[00:29:19] Nikki Bell: I’ve learned, I’ve learned. So this, this year we’re gonna pre, but also we’re gonna serve just to like, manage stuff.

[00:29:25] Nikki Bell: But we did catch up with people, um, and, uh, and, and give them, uh, pizza gift cards that they didn’t miss out. Uh, LA two weeks ago, I found out that I can’t have dairy. So I’m on the vegan pizza work now as well. You know what, there are some 

[00:29:38] Josh Leigh: delicious vegan pizzas, so I think there’ll be loads to go, loads going around at this one.

[00:29:43] Nikki Bell: That’s when I asked her, I was like, what about pizza? She was like, sorry. I was like, oh, that’s my whole personal brand. Um, so pizza for Josh. Okay. Um, but you’re hosting as well, so I’m sure. 

[00:29:55] Josh Leigh: I’m also hosting, so I’m very much, I’m looking forward to, I, I will say hosting this event. I host a lot of different events in the sector.

[00:30:01] Josh Leigh: This one is so different. So unique. As I said, this is, I, I’ve seen a lot of people speak, I’ve seen a lot of first time speakers, a lot of seasoned speakers. It’s the pizza for loses speakers that will wriggle in under your skin and stick with you for years to come. And so what I’m looking forward to most, I think this year is the next kind of Leslie Pinder or Alexa Stroms talk that gets into my head and actually informs decisions I make for the next 10 years.

[00:30:26] Josh Leigh: I think that’s what I’m gonna, I think that’s what I’m looking forward to is defining the. There’ll be a couple of talks that speak to me. There’ll be a couple of talks that speak to different attendees in the room. So the whole lineup is brilliant, but each person might get something a little bit different out of this event.

[00:30:38] Josh Leigh: Mm-hmm. Um, all of it really building up to, I think what Matt just said, that failure is actually a step forward, and I think that’s what we’ll take away. But I’m really looking forward to finding the next RuPaul’s Drag Race of gif led talk that sticks with me for the next decade and informs what I do in my career, in my personal life, in my hobbies, in my relationships.

[00:30:56] Josh Leigh: I think that’s, that’s what you get from Pizza for Losers, and that’s what I’m looking forward to. 

[00:31:00] Nikki Bell: The bar is high. So I’ve been speaking to, oh sorry Matt. I meant for the speakers, like the less. Um, so I have been speaking to other speakers so far, um, and just been getting a vibe for what they’re talking about.

[00:31:13] Nikki Bell: So not to give too many spoilers away, um, but we do have someone sharing how they up. A scope of work for A CRM, uh, and to actually get it fully implemented, cost the charity an extra 20,000 pounds, um, and what they’ve done, uh, to avoid that in future, but also how to get the team back on side, uh, after all of their hard work.

[00:31:35] Nikki Bell: So that’s one of the talk. We have a fantastic talk from somebody who, um, they had worked really hard on this corporate partnership and when the corporate partners turned up to do volunteer and the volunteers told the fuck off, um, so that’s story and how they love that, which is great. But then we do have people talking, um, about their wellbeing and about those moments in their career and in their lives where.

[00:32:02] Nikki Bell: You know, they have had to go, I’m not okay, and what am I actually gonna do next that’s gonna help me survive this? So there’s a lovely flow of stories, um, experiences, but they’re all true and just from the heart and, and shared. So yeah, there’s a little, little taste of, of what’s coming on the day. Yes, ma’am.

[00:32:22] Nikki Bell: And what about you, Matt? When you tune in, what are you looking forward to? 

[00:32:27] Matt Middler: As a first timer. I mean, my, for me the bar is pretty low, actually. Maybe the opposite of Josh. The bar is pretty low. I just wanna experience the event. I’ve heard so much about it over over years. Um, and so I’m excited to come along for the first time.

[00:32:41] Matt Middler: I’m not aware of anything like elsewhere in the sector. Um, it sounds pretty special and, and actually what’s sticking in my mind from today is what Josh said about. How challenging it can be to be in spaces where people are only talking about the successes and actually how that can lead you to getting into that dark corner of thinking, well, everybody’s succeeding but me.

[00:33:04] Matt Middler: So I think maybe this, we need a bit of this, especially in these difficult times. We need to get in a room together and realize that actually we’re all fucking up all the time and it’s fine. 

[00:33:13] Nikki Bell: Gorgeous. Got you to drop your first F bomb. I was waiting 32 minutes for, that’s was honestly 

[00:33:18] Josh Leigh: worried it was gonna be me.

[00:33:20] Josh Leigh: And then I heard a couple of F bombs and I’m like, I’m good. I’m safe. Safe space. 

[00:33:24] Nikki Bell: Yeah. Pizza for loses. It’s for people to be able to share. Properly, there’s no rules on how they share it apart from obviously, you know, it can’t be like, harmful, hurtful, uh, or the C word. I think I’d probably draw the line at that in a, in a workspace.

[00:33:39] Nikki Bell: Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s fine. We, we have put a little disclaimer on the event, join instructions just to prep people so they’re not like, oh. My days. Um, but it’s, I think we are seeing change. This year’s event, uh, was the first time that I’ve seen teams book. So they’re using it as their team away day fundraising everywhere.

[00:33:55] Nikki Bell: We’re actually using it as their team away day. Um, so we’ve got our work team day, the day before where we’re actually doing strategy stuff. We’re actually fundraising everywhere. We’re coming to just enjoy cool earth bringing their team along, uh, as well. And I think that’s just so promising. Imagine you manager being like, let’s go to this event where we’re gonna learn how to.

[00:34:14] Nikki Bell: Feel more confident, improve our wellbeing and just, you know, learn how we can actually get through progression. I think that’s just such an important, um, message to, to send to the people that you work with. 

[00:34:25] Matt Middler: What a great way to embed that culture of embracing failure to actually attend an event like this, 

[00:34:32] Nikki Bell: and hopefully they’ll share their own.

[00:34:33] Nikki Bell: Which leads me onto my next and final question. What is your fail? What’s your failure story? 

[00:34:41] Josh Leigh: Matt, you go first.

[00:34:45] Josh Leigh: I don’t wanna, I have, I, I can talk a little bit. Um, oh God. I’m just getting, you get your heart races, your adrenaline runs. Even thinking about failure, that’s the scariest part. But I will say, I, I dunno if it’s obvious, I’m kind of hilarious. I do standup, amateur standup comedy as a hobby and, um. I think I learned it so much in doing about three or four years of, of standup, but I’ve said it a few times today, if you’re not bombing, you’re not trying new material.

[00:35:08] Josh Leigh: And I recently bombed the worst. I have bombed on stage ever. It was not even bombing the, the mc was like, I, that wasn’t even bombing. You were just sarcastically failing. You got so arrogant. And I was like, yeah, I got defensive and started attacking people and it was just like it. Not physically, of course, comedically.

[00:35:28] Josh Leigh: But I think, um, I will say it’s, I think I’ve, I, I’ve learned so much from doing standard comedy for the last few years that really, if you’re not bombing, you’re not trying new material. And for a long time I was scared to try new material because I was so scared of bombing. But then you just, you have to get used to it.

[00:35:41] Josh Leigh: And it is a part of the game, and I think it’s a part of everyone’s career is you will make mistakes and small mistakes. But for me it would be about four or five weeks ago just bombing. Tragically, and then it put me off trying anything new and I just regressed back into my old material for a little bit.

[00:35:56] Josh Leigh: But then eventually you get back on the horse. Take as long as you need, but you get back on the horse. And that’s what I did. But, oh, I’m having PTSD just thinking about it. 

[00:36:05] Nikki Bell: On that. So you said at the beginning about the feelings, um, so there was a Harvard study done. Um, so when you experience emotions, so those feelings of shame as well, Matt, what you mentioned around, uh, failure.

[00:36:16] Nikki Bell: We only experience it for 90 seconds as like a, a chemical emotion, but then after that it’s choice to stay in that emotional loop. Mm-hmm. Which I thought was like a really interesting. Uh, piece of research and statistic. ’cause I think it is that feeling, isn’t it? That puts us off. But you’ve just shared there and you’re fine.

[00:36:35] Nikki Bell: You’re still alive. We’re still, I 

[00:36:36] Josh Leigh: survived. I think that’s, I try and remind people it’s your fight or flight kicks in, but you’re not. Mm-hmm. We’re not gonna die. You’re, you’re fine. You’re fine. Yeah. 

[00:36:45] Jade Cunnah: Good. 

[00:36:45] Nikki Bell: You are in it’s safe space. Safe space. And what about you, Matt? 

[00:36:49] Matt Middler: I think one of the ones that gave me nightmares for a long time afterwards was, so we’re talking 12 years ago.

[00:36:54] Matt Middler: It was my first full-time community fundraiser job. I was based in Edinburgh, and we’d secured charity partner for the Melrose Sevens, which was like the big tournament in Melrose and the Scottish Borders home of Rugby Sevens and, um. We had a, a, an organization had a fundraising group, you know, one of these community fundraising groups in the local area, and they had skewed the partnership.

[00:37:18] Matt Middler: So really I was driving down as the, the fundraiser from head office to come and support the, uh, the fundraising event and come down with our big people carrier with all of the gazebos and everything in the back. Um, arrived at the event about an hour before it was due to start, um, took everything out and there was the frame for the gazebo, but no covering.

[00:37:40] Matt Middler: And this is in in Rain Scotland. And I had just been so overworked and so stressed at the time that I just loaded up half of the gazebo and left half of it in the store covered back in Edinburgh. 

[00:37:51] Multiple Speakers: Love it. 

[00:37:52] Matt Middler: And I had no other option than to say, I’m really sorry, I’ve forgotten to cover. I’m gonna do a two hour round trip back to Edinburgh to get the cover and to back.

[00:38:01] Matt Middler: Did you do 

[00:38:01] Multiple Speakers: that? Uh, 

[00:38:03] Matt Middler: yes, I got straight. Oh gosh. I just ran into the car, drove back down, then drove back again. They were very unhappy with me at the time, but it was human error, you know? Uh, there was nothing I could do about it. And yeah, I did beat myself up about it, but on reflection, maybe I shouldn’t have, you know, it was at the end of the world.

[00:38:22] Matt Middler: It wasn’t the end of the world. It never, yeah. You know, the, there were thousand of people there. They didn’t, there weren’t feedback forms saying, oh, the, the gazebo from the chat depart black. 

[00:38:35] Nikki Bell: I can bet you never forgot a gazebo cover after that because you remember what happened when you forgot it last time and you were like, I’m not doing that again.

[00:38:43] Matt Middler: Absolutely. I, I’m now an over-prepared or when it comes to events and, um, especially when they’re out of time. 

[00:38:50] Nikki Bell: Gazebos as well are coming up a lot. And pizza loos. That’s four gazebo stories. Maybe we should just Sustainability. No more gazebos. Let’s just start with the gazebo. Remove the problem. Let’s not just work through this problem.

[00:39:03] Matt Middler: Just need a fundraising camp van. That’s it. 

[00:39:08] Nikki Bell: Yeah. Well, for community fundraisers, so I have a camp of van now, but when I was commute fundraiser, I had like a 4K and trying to shove all of the book and Mr. Harley into that space, maybe a, a fundraising camp of fund’s. Not a, not a bad idea, but thank you for sharing.

[00:39:24] Nikki Bell: Um, there will be many stories like that. Um, many with more tales of wool, uh, and inspiration on July 10th. Josh, I’m excited to see you there, Matt. We will be sure to say hi through the live stream. Um, and just to remind you some other speakers that we have at the event. So we have Simon Scriber. I’m not sure if you’ve heard of him.

[00:39:46] Nikki Bell: Uh, so he’ll be joining us. Uh, we have Veronica Jaqui, uh, who’s the senior IG manager at Great Ormond Street Hospital Charity. Um, Dale Moffett, who’s the head, head of operations at Spinal Research. Katie Cliff, the senior new partnerships manager at Dogs Trust, Judith Saba as well, who’s one of our coach called.

[00:40:09] Nikki Bell: Um, so Judith’s gonna be coming along to talk about growth mindset and actually someone with the smarts and who knows what they’re talking about to tell us. How to push through those things and, and be better in that area. So I’m looking forward to that one. Many notes to be taken. We have Shabi Amini, who’s the director of fundraising and marketing at Map.

[00:40:27] Nikki Bell: Um, and, and Anish Yma Palmer, head of Legacies of British Red Cross, Gabby Field. Sorry, I didn’t, just reading out a list. Now I forgot. Gabby Fields, the deputy director for a great Almond Street Hospital charity. Um, so there’s. It is just speaking from a different perspective, not to highlight that charity.

[00:40:43] Nikki Bell: Um, but she’s talking about her leadership experiences and Beth k crackles, who’s the CEO at Sheffield Hospital’s Charity as well. So what I think is really lovely about that list of speak is it, it, it is a lot of people like in senior leadership, uh, positions. Mm-hmm. Um, and that’s strategic ’cause Yeah.

[00:40:59] Nikki Bell: For your team to do it and be okay with it. Like they have to hear it from the top. And of course I would. I host Josh Lee of, uh, hint and, uh, pizza Chef fame. Will you be rocking a chef’s hat again this year? 

[00:41:13] Josh Leigh: I honestly, you’ll have to hold me back. I’m even gonna have a chef’s hat. I’ll do anything. I’ll do it all.

[00:41:18] Josh Leigh: Uh, I, we did a virtual one where I was spinning pizza dough. I’ve, nothing will stop me from making a fool of myself at this event. 

[00:41:26] Nikki Bell: I was gonna wear, do you know? Um, from Oui with where the little map I found on Amazon, you can get the, and he’s holding the little hair and, oh, love it. What’s he called? Remy.

[00:41:38] Nikki Bell: Remy. So we’ll see. We might have to have like a hat off or something. 

[00:41:41] Matt Middler: I, I might just order some pizza in. What a shame. No. Oh, what a shame, man. Honestly, 

[00:41:48] Nikki Bell: what is your favorite pizza? 

[00:41:50] Matt Middler: Do you know what I, I’m just pepperoni. I just love a double pepperoni pizza every time. That’s solid choice. 

[00:41:57] Nikki Bell: Josh, who are you?

[00:41:58] Josh Leigh: I’m Margarita, which I think I, I don’t eat meat, and I think that’s the same as what you’re saying, Matt, with pepper, like, I just want the basic, I, I really just love a classic. Done. Well, margarita, don’t overthink it. I 

[00:42:11] Matt Middler: had a four cheese pizza a couple of weeks ago that was okay. So 

[00:42:15] Josh Leigh: yeah, I will allow overthinking a margarita if you’re adding three additional cheeses to it that’s approved that I’ll do, or even a margarita with a stuffed crust anyway, but it’s just a cheese.

[00:42:24] Josh Leigh: That’s all you need is a bit of bread and a bit of cheese, a bit of tomato sauce on that. I’m 

[00:42:27] Matt Middler: feeling bad for Nick now, you know. I haven’t found, sorry. 

[00:42:32] Nikki Bell: I know I haven’t found welcome to the pizza podcast. Um, I haven’t found yet. 

[00:42:39] Matt Middler: Doesn’t have the same ring, does it? Pasta for No, 

[00:42:42] Nikki Bell: no, no. But I, I, I mean, I, I do eat meat.

[00:42:45] Nikki Bell: I might just try marinara with a little dash of pepperoni. We’ll see. I’ll find ’cause vegan cheese, it’s hit and miss isn’t it? Depends where you’re, I could just carry my own vegan cheese around. Getting 

[00:42:57] Multiple Speakers: better though. 

[00:42:58] Josh Leigh: Honestly, I wouldn’t put a past to carry that bit of vegan cheese in your bag just in case I get 

[00:43:03] Nikki Bell: really, seriously, do you know?

[00:43:05] Nikki Bell: So, yeah. That’s why its so heartbreaking. I feel like it, it’s punishment for something, so I just need to, I need to take it. But uh, yeah, you’ll see me. Struggling with the pizza choices, uh, on July 10th, uh, at Pizza for Losers. I’m really looking forward to it, um, lush that you’ll both be there in some capacity and, uh, yeah.

[00:43:26] Nikki Bell: Thank you for talking to us today about your fails and pizza. Appreciate it. No, thanks for having us. 

[00:43:31] Matt Middler: Thank you for having us. Yeah. Nice to meet you, Josh. 

[00:43:34] Josh Leigh: Bye. Okay, I’ll see you guys later, cia. Bye. 

[00:43:40] Alex Aggidis: Thank you so much for listening to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. If you’re enjoying this podcast, why not share it with a fundraising friend?

[00:43:47] Alex Aggidis: And if you would like to give us a little lyco subscribe. It really helps more fundraisers like you find us. Thank you so much. See you next time.

*************
This transcript was created using AI. If you spot any mistakes, please reach out. Thank you!