Transcript

[00:00:00] Multiple Voices: Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. , you don’t need to add me in there.

[00:00:31] Jade Cunnah: Welcome to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. Your go-to place for fundraising tips and inspiration. Love what you hear. Get more insights straight to your inbox. Subscribe to our email list for exclusive fundraising resources, early access to training, special discounts, and more. Just head on over to fundraising everwhere.com/podcast to subscribe Now onto today’s episode, enjoy.

[00:00:59] Simon Scriver: Well, hello everyone and welcome to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. My name is Simon Scriver. I am one of the co-founders of fundraising everywhere. Uh, and I’m very, very happy to be back with you again chatting to, uh, another great guest. Um, and today we’re, we’re, well, at the moment we’re focusing on, uh, recruitment and, and people’s careers, especially in for, for fundraisers, but in the nonprofit sector as a whole.

[00:01:22] Simon Scriver: The wider, uh, recruitment world. And so, um, who I’ve invited on to get the podcast today is the wonderful Joe McGinnis, uh, from Think, um, first of all, hello Joe, how are you? Hi, 

[00:01:35] Jo McGuinness: I’m great. Delighted to be here. 

[00:01:38] Simon Scriver: Joe, I, I, I’ve had the pleasure to talk to you several times over the years. Um, and this is why, one of the reasons I really wanted to get you back to kind of check in, uh, on, on, I guess, how you’ve been and your perception of recruitment in the sector, um, since we last spoke.

[00:01:53] Simon Scriver: But for, for people who don’t know the infamous Joe McGinness already, who, who are you? 

[00:01:59] Jo McGuinness: Who am I? So I, um, I would still describe myself as a fundraiser. So I started in the sector as a community fundraiser with, uh, cancer Research UK 18 years ago. Um, absolutely love, uh, community fundraising, and worked my way up there to, to lead fundraising teams.

[00:02:19] Jo McGuinness: Um, from there broadened to encompass philanthropy and corporate as well. Um, but in, um. 2024, I stepped out of working in-house predominantly in a charity and took the exciting opportunity to work with, think one of the sector’s consultancy businesses, uh, to set up their think recruitment arm of the business they’ve been doing, um, placing interims in the charity sector for over 15 years, but not made the natural next step to them providing permanent.

[00:02:51] Jo McGuinness: Candidates in post. So it was a really exciting time to get involved. And because I had been through, well, obviously a number of, of successful job seeking activities, I’d also been through more than my fair share of unsuccessful job seeking activities. So, um, I. Have felt passionate about recruitment practice across the sector for many, many years.

[00:03:13] Jo McGuinness: Spoken about it at, at some of the sector conferences and things like that. Um, and it was a really, really nice opportunity for me to put into practice some of the things that I have been. Calling recruiters and organizations out for, um, through think recruitment. So it’s interesting to be sector adjacent rather than in-house.

[00:03:34] Jo McGuinness: Um, but it’s, it’s great to see a lot of, you know, variety across candidates and clients and support candidates. I think that’s the thing, you know, as a fundraiser, it’s all about relationship management and, and doing right by people to achieve great results. And I feel like that’s echoed in, in working in, in sector recruitment.

[00:03:52] Jo McGuinness: A 

[00:03:52] Simon Scriver: hundred percent. I mean, you, you strike me. Well, you’ve always been to me, someone who’s very supportive of the sector as a whole and very supportive of individuals. Um, for people who dunno, Joe is also the admin of Fundraising Chat, um, which is a, a wonderful community on, on Facebook. I highly recommend with over 20,000, over 20, well over 20,000 people.

[00:04:12] Simon Scriver: Yeah. Well over, 

[00:04:12] Jo McGuinness: yeah. 

[00:04:13] Simon Scriver: Yeah, so Joe, for me, for me has always been someone who’s kind of been, um, advocating for fundraisers and, and very outspoken vocal, which is, which is something quite rare for people when they’re in a charity. You know, when they’re working in a charity, people kinda have to keep their heads down.

[00:04:27] Simon Scriver: So Joe’s been great for that. So I was really excited, um, to see you start working with Think, um, on the Think recruitment. Um, we at Fundraiser never are big fans of Think and actually think are, are partnering with us. On our upcoming fundraising, recruitment and careers conference. So we’re actually running a whole conference about recruitment and careers, um, coming up in November.

[00:04:46] Simon Scriver: So there’s a link for that in the description here. Um, but it, I find it really interesting ’cause you’ve always been talking from the point of view as an applicant and a and a yes worker, like a worker bee in the sector. 

[00:04:58] Jade Cunnah: Yeah. 

[00:04:59] Simon Scriver: And, and now you find yourself in the, I don’t wanna say position of power. You are, you are the person we’ve been complaining about for years, aren’t you?

[00:05:09] Jo McGuinness: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that was what was another part of what was really appealing, um, at working, at Think to, to launch, think recruitment was trying to do it in the right way and really thinking about. What we wanted the USP of Think recruitment to be. And for me the most important thing was to do right by the candidates because although it’s the clients, the organizations that are ultimately paying the invoice, at the end of the day, um, their goal is for us to help ’em find the best candidate.

[00:05:39] Jo McGuinness: And the way in which we can stand a stronger chance of doing that is by ensuring that the process is appealing. To candidate, it’s supportive and it’s helping them bring their best selves to the selection process. So by doing things that, um, you know, previously were, when unaddressed were areas of irritation for me as a job seeker, by addressing them and, and working with, you know, supporting the client to address those areas, we can find better people for them, you know, better fits for their role, for their needs, um, but also ensure that the candidate.

[00:06:14] Jo McGuinness: Whether successful or not has had a positive experience going through that selection process. And that was really important to me. So it’s great to be in that position of power. Um, one of the things we did say though with with think recruitment is it’s about. Moving the dial with some clients we work with, they are very willing to take on ly everything that we suggest and, you know, in some ways revolutionize their, their recruitment process.

[00:06:40] Jo McGuinness: Others are a little bit more wary or perhaps somewhat hampered by wider organizational, um, red tape or, you know, limitations. Um, but it’s about every client that we work with, I want them to. Have better understanding of the impact of the selection process on the candidates and think about even if it’s just one or two things that they can do that might improve their process going forward to make it just that little bit better.

[00:07:05] Jo McGuinness: So that’s, that’s my goal every time. 

[00:07:08] Simon Scriver: Yeah. And I know like when you are working with your, your clients, it isn’t always about that kind of big overhaul change and you know, and because we know sometimes that’s impossible in certain organizations Yeah. And the structures we work in. Um, so, you know, I I do love your approach of almost this baby steps, you know, the effort and the, the little things and, and just trying to tackle some of the bad practices one by one.

[00:07:31] Simon Scriver: Yeah. Like that’s pro, that’s progress. It’s progress. 

[00:07:33] Jo McGuinness: Exactly. And I think, you know, sometimes. Because recruitment for a recruiting manager in an organization, you know, and I know because I’ve been there when I was, you know, head of department, I had no time. I was dealing with umpteen other things, managing people, worrying about budgets, that even though recruitment is part of their.

[00:07:51] Jo McGuinness: Responsibility. It’s not their day to day. So when they, you know, get the notification that one of their team members leaving and they need to find a replacement, it’s very easy to just go back to what they’ve always done. Uh, not challenge the process ’cause they simply don’t have time. Um, and also they’re busy doing the doing of, you know, bringing the money in.

[00:08:11] Jo McGuinness: So it’s difficult to then. You know, take that time to think what is, you know, expected practice, uh, across sector recruitment at the moment. You know, are we actually ticking all of those boxes? And particularly if you work in an organization where there is a big HR team who have, you know, specifics in a specific process that you need to follow, it can feel like you, you’ve got to be sort of railroaded into that way.

[00:08:40] Jo McGuinness: Recruitment, uh, agency, we can support the, the recruiting managers to, well, they don’t need to have the time. They can just download everything they need to download onto us, and we will then, you know, come up with ways to improve the process that maybe they haven’t had the time or the capacity to think of.

[00:08:58] Simon Scriver: Yeah. And I know, I mean, I’m not, I’m not just giving you a shameless plug, but I know as someone who’s, who’s recruited a number of people in my career, doing everything yourself is just not worth it. It’s always, I’ve always found it’s been, um, it’s been a much better. Uh, experience when I’ve brought in an expert to actually support on that.

[00:09:16] Simon Scriver: So I do, I do, you know, if you are in a position where you are looking at recruiting, I do recommend looking at, at Think and chatting to, chatting to Joe. But you talk about, um, organizations with like recruitment managers and HR departments. But we also know on the flip side, there’s all these organizations small who are maybe recruiting for the first time or anything, and they don’t, you know, we don’t necessarily know what we don’t know.

[00:09:37] Simon Scriver: And so, um, you kind of take inspiration from what’s already out there. Which might not be good practices, and I, I know like I’ll, I’ll. Not many people might admit this, but we’ve all copied and pasted job ads and tweaked it. And so you’re literally copying and pasting bad practices, like not showing the salary and things like that.

[00:09:58] Simon Scriver: Yeah. So sometimes it’s not even, you know, you just don’t even think of it. You don’t even know that you’re doing these bad practices, and that’s why I think I really appreciated your blog that you did for us, where you, you actually spelled out some of these things and it was like, oh yeah, yeah, I see 

[00:10:11] Jo McGuinness: that 

[00:10:12] Simon Scriver: now.

[00:10:12] Simon Scriver: I see it now. 

[00:10:14] Jo McGuinness: Absolutely. Or, you know, you might hear of another organization that’s, that’s doing something and you might just think, I wouldn’t even know where to start. Mm-hmm. Um, or, you know, is that gonna be possible within the, um, the boundaries of how my organization works? You? Uh, one of the things we say is, uh, sometimes it’s best to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.

[00:10:35] Jo McGuinness: Um. Because sometimes it’s nice to just go ahead and try some of these things. Like for example, um, if you’re a recruiter manager, go ahead and put it out on LinkedIn that you are happy to have a chat, an informal chat with any interested candidates. Even if that’s not something that your organization offers as standard, there’s nothing necessarily stopping you from doing it.

[00:10:53] Jo McGuinness: And what’s the worst that can happen? Mm-hmm. Um. What could happen from that is that you could find a slightly unsure candidate who’s absolutely brilliant and just needs that opportunity to get a little bit of reassurance that it’s the role in the organization for them. So, yeah, it’s, uh, you don’t know what you don’t know, but that’s why I’m really looking forward to the, the conference, um, in November because I think there’ll be something for everybody there, whether you’re a job seeker or a HR professional who’s, you’ve got questions about how your organization does it, or a recruiting manager who’s really struggled to feel vacant.

[00:11:26] Jo McGuinness: Agencies in your team and just looking for some little tweaks, there’s gonna be something for everyone. A 

[00:11:30] Simon Scriver: hundred percent. And, and I know you are gonna be presenting a, a case study, um, with the charity, so I do highly recommend people check out, um, the conference. There’s a link in the description. Tickets are available, and, and we’ll be really delving into some of these, but let’s, let’s get, let’s give us a taster.

[00:11:47] Simon Scriver: Of what kind of things you’re seeing? I mean, because I know when we’ve spoken before, one of the obvious ones or one of the big ones, which seems very, um, uh, known these days is about showing the salary. Um, but people, you still see job ads where it’s saying, you know, salary, a salary, uh, dependent on experience or salary range is this huge range or Yeah.

[00:12:06] Simon Scriver: You know, it’s just all a bit vague sometimes. Um, talk to us again about why, you know, why that’s a big bug bear review. 

[00:12:14] Jo McGuinness: Yeah, it, uh, it has got a lot better. We have definitely seen improvements across the sector thanks to movements like show the salary. Um, it’s a real issue because first and foremost, you know, if, if a candidate’s looking at your role and, and they really like your organization, the job title, and you know, the remit and responsibility speaks to them and their experience, but you’re not telling them what the salary is, how do they know whether they’re gonna be able to pay their bills?

[00:12:39] Jo McGuinness: First and foremost? You are asking candidates to take a gigantic leap of faith when they don’t need to. You could just tell them what this role’s gonna pay. We see it less now, um, at the more junior, I’d say, to sort of middle management level roles across the sector. But we do still see it really commonly across like the, um, from heads of directors, CEOs.

[00:13:02] Jo McGuinness: And I think even though there, there’s obviously less people within the sector that are going for those, um. Top of the tree level roles, what it does do is, is. It tells the people in the more junior roles that it’s, it’s shady at the top in terms of their salary. And, and that’s not nice either. Like people wanna look at where their career path could go.

[00:13:23] Jo McGuinness: Mm-hmm. Um, and also just if you are part of an organization that has values of honesty or transparency or, or whatever, you are not, you are not demonstrating that in, in real life. One of the things that’s become a bit more of a bug bear for me. When I see job ads, now that the salary on the whole is shown, is what you mentioned about it being a really big salary band.

[00:13:45] Jo McGuinness: Mm-hmm. And I think that’s really frustrating because you might have a large salary band to allow for people in role to progress in terms of salary, which is fine. But what I would like organizations to do, as a matter of course, is to explain within their job ad or their candidate pack. Is why somebody might be appointed at the bottom of the salary band versus the middle or the top, and provide that context so that people understand going into the process or that the salary band is 20 to 30,000.

[00:14:17] Jo McGuinness: Um, I’ve got great experience. Um. I’ve got through, they’ve offered me the role. Why if they offered it to me at 20. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that sort of, again, it comes back to transparency and honesty and just being really upfront with candidates because they’re giving their time, their energy, their effort to apply for your role, be really open with them about the process.

[00:14:37] Jo McGuinness: You know, what does it involve and how will decisions be made. And I think that’s a really. Crucial thing that can really demonstrate the culture of an organization upfront. 

[00:14:47] Simon Scriver: Hmm. I think, I think the, the benefits always seem kind of so obvious to me in terms of like, you know, just being, you know, like you say, living those values, being transparent, gaining trust.

[00:14:57] Simon Scriver: Even saving time because you’re kind of weeding out the things that aren’t gonna work. But I’m, I’m really curious now that you’re in the position where you are helping so many organizations place people, what, what is the pushback you get? Like why do these, um, these recruiters kind of not want you to necessarily show this?

[00:15:14] Simon Scriver: Is it ’cause they don’t know or what’s happening there? 

[00:15:17] Jo McGuinness: Yeah, I think nine times out of 10, the recruiting manager just hadn’t thought of it, just hadn’t really considered it as an issue. When you are in the job doing the doing and looking to recruit a lot of the time. Your experience of job hunting and, and some of the irritations that you may be experienced are now further from your mind.

[00:15:37] Jo McGuinness: So it’s quite difficult for recruiting managers to place themselves in the candidate’s shoes and think, what about this process would irritate me, um, if, or waste my time if I’m a candidate? But that’s the role of recruitment agency is, is to think like that and to advise about what you can do. So that’s probably nine times outta 10.

[00:15:55] Jo McGuinness: The thought just hadn’t even occurred to them. But then there have been clients that we have spoken to, um, where they are well aware that perhaps their salary band isn’t that great. Um, or perhaps there’s some internal policy that just says we always offer at the bottom. But I would still very much advocate for honesty because.

[00:16:19] Jo McGuinness: You know, it’s better to say it than for a candidate to find out or the point of being offered the role. Because I think even if you’ve got policies or processes that just aren’t great, and you as a recruitment manager know that they aren’t great, but there’s nothing you can do about it, at least by being really transparent about that, that demonstrates the fact that not everything’s perfect.

[00:16:38] Jo McGuinness: But you’re willing to say that. And that goes a long way with candidates. It really does. It looks better than recruitment. Just think it does. 

[00:16:46] Simon Scriver: Yeah. I mean, it takes that shadiness out of it, um, that you, that you mentioned before, which just seems to be. Listed throughout this, this process sometimes, and it’s just, it doesn’t instill confidence.

[00:16:56] Simon Scriver: I’m really interested, you talk about kind of the people, the nose and, and that, that kind of lasting feeling they have about the organization, you know, that kind of, and I think that’s, that’s, that’s undermined sometimes like the, how important that is because you do some, you know, you will be going out, um, recruiting again in the future.

[00:17:13] Simon Scriver: Yeah. It is a small sector and people kind of move around and, and bring that experience that you’ve given them with that. So I’m really curious to talk to you about people, the, the, the nose. Mm-hmm. The people that you are rejecting, because one of the things you talked about was that feedback stage, you know, that kind of constructive feedback that we could or should be giving back to people, you know, especially when they ask.

[00:17:35] Simon Scriver: But I’ve seen it in many times where, you know, you. You don’t even get a know, or you don’t even get, you know, they won’t give you anything. What, what, what’s your thoughts on that at, at this stage? 

[00:17:45] Jo McGuinness: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we say at Think Recruitment is we would advise our clients to treat their candidates like they’re with their donors.

[00:17:54] Jo McGuinness: Um, and I’ve spoken about this when I have done previous conferences and things that some of this behavior just would not fly if that person was a donor. Um, and that goes from everything from having really arduous and clunky job application processes. If that was a donor funnel, a donation funnel, that that would be sorted as a matter of.

[00:18:15] Jo McGuinness: Urgent priority. Um, but because it’s a, a job seeker, it’s not seen with the same level of importance. But I’ve spoken to candidates who have been rejected from jobs or not given feedback who already are donors. They volunteered. Yeah. They, you know, have members of their family that are impacted by the cause of the organization that are going for, like, these things really matter.

[00:18:36] Jo McGuinness: And like said, it’s a very small community fundraising in the uk so these. PE and fundraisers have long memories. So these things stay with people. They talk about it and people find out. Um, so yeah, the, the, the feedback issue is a really, really, um, important one to me. When I have a chat with a client at the start of a recruitment campaign, that’s one of the things that I say that we commit to do.

[00:19:02] Jo McGuinness: I think we will always provide feedback to any candidate, successful or unsuccessful who wants it. And it will be robust feedback. So, you know, when I book in the interviews for a client, I will book in, you know, an hour after just to download from them how the interviews went, and some robust feedback around what did each candidate do well, where did they fall down against the scoring criteria and some overall feedback.

[00:19:29] Jo McGuinness: So they’ve got specific things that they can take away. And then even if they aren’t. Successful. The important thing is that they understand why that time has still been useful to them, even though it hasn’t resulted in them getting a job. And they will think favorably of the client organization mm-hmm.

[00:19:46] Jo McGuinness: Because they bothered to, you know, give them something that’s, that’s useful and robust. 

[00:19:51] Simon Scriver: Yeah. I mean, it seems, it seems inevitable someone applying to work at your organization. Not that they might already be a donor or a volunteer or that they might, but they are a potential. Supporter and an advocate for you.

[00:20:03] Simon Scriver: And I guess just even as humans, we don’t wanna leave people with that sour taste in their mouth after they finish 

[00:20:08] Jo McGuinness: this. No. It matters so much and it matters so much more in this sector than if we were in the private sector. Because you know, if you’re applying to work as a. Sales manager for a paint company.

[00:20:21] Jo McGuinness: I’m sure you can fake some enthusiasm about paint company, but with a fundraiser, you know, if you are gonna be a a corporate new business fundraiser, you genuinely do need to feel some sort of level of empathy or, or passion or something for the cause. Um, and more often not people are genuinely looking for a cause to work for where they do already have that connection and, and.

[00:20:42] Jo McGuinness: And are a supporter, whether a financial supporter or not. Mm-hmm. So it’s so important. Everything that the client organization, the recruiting charity does is an advert for them, either as you know, for candidates to be donors or future employer employees. Um, so everything matters. 

[00:21:02] Simon Scriver: Um, I, I also wanna apologize to any listeners who are very into paint.

[00:21:07] Simon Scriver: Um, and please, please do check out the Paint Everywhere podcast. That might be more suit for you. Um, but at, at the conference, um, that you guys are, um, putting on with us the fundraising, recruitment and careers conference in November, Rob is gonna be diving quite deeply into like the, the, the interview process.

[00:21:26] Simon Scriver: Um, and those steps there. And, um, and there’s some interesting things that you guys, um, I think talk about in those interview process. And I see conversations a lot around, you know, um. The idea of, uh, hybrids, you know, recruitment and, and you know, where that interview is happening. Um, yeah, I see. Talk about kind of, um, giving people the questions in advance.

[00:21:46] Simon Scriver: Yeah. And there’s still kind of a, a, a bit of a heated debate on what a perfect recruit, uh, perfect interview process looks like. Is there a one size fits all, um, answer to this that you’re gonna be sharing at the conference? Or what kind of things do we need to consider in the interview personally? 

[00:22:02] Jo McGuinness: I feel like I really wanna say yes to that because that will really get everybody along to the conference.

[00:22:06] Jo McGuinness: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tune 

[00:22:07] Simon Scriver: in for this one life saving fact. 

[00:22:10] Jo McGuinness: But unfortunately, no, there isn’t a one size fits all. I think, you know, that’s, that’s part of the fun I have in my job of working with different clients is figuring out what will work for them and they’re candidates that they’ll be putting through the process.

[00:22:24] Jo McGuinness: Um, and you know, it’s never gonna be without challenge. I’ve, I’ve dealt with clients who have got a fully remote role that they’re hiring for, but want to have in-person interviews, which is a challenge, but there are still things that you can do to ensure that the process is inclusive and candidate friendly.

[00:22:42] Jo McGuinness: And it can be as little as saying, we appreciate that. Coming to an in-person interview for a fully remote role requires some travel and time out of your day. Please find attached the expenses form for you to preemptively claim for your expenses to help you get to the interview and back. And. The feedback that we’ve had from candidates doing that was absolutely brilliant because, you know, it removes any sense of awkwardness that they might have.

[00:23:09] Jo McGuinness: They can plan whether they can attend the interview with that in mind, the fact that it’s, they’re gonna get their costs back. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, little things like that can go a long way, even if the process, you know, for a fully remote role can’t be done fully remotely. Um, with regards to sharing questions in advance, we still do have many, many of the clients that we work with who haven’t done this to date and feel a little bit scared about it.

[00:23:34] Jo McGuinness: And some of the most common concerns coming from clients are, well, won’t people just use chat, GPT and, and cheat? If you can tell when people are doing that, you really can tell. Mm-hmm. Um. Or, you know, yeah. Other thing, it’s mainly the team, to be honest. Um, or they’ll say things like, well, we don’t wanna give them too far in advance, because then it’ll just be rehearsed answers.

[00:23:57] Jo McGuinness: But you’ve got probing questions for that. You know, if somebody’s giving a really, really interesting answer to a question that they’ve had in advance, delve a bit deeper the fact that you’ve told them what to expect, and they have prepared their best example to demonstrate that, um, the, the, the question that you’ve asked.

[00:24:15] Jo McGuinness: It means that they know it intrinsically. So by delving a little bit deeper through probing questions, that’s absolutely fine. And you can obviously flag the fact that the, the interview panel will likely ask probing questions. So they expect it, but it just so much it levels the playing field. It just means that people who require the questions in advance, whether it’s due to neurodiversity or as a reasonable adjustment for another condition, or even just because they’re a reflector, um.

[00:24:40] Jo McGuinness: It’s so much, so much better, so much more inclusive all round. And as a recruiting organization, I guarantee you will get a better quality of answer. The interview will be a higher quality all round if you do that 

[00:24:54] Simon Scriver: well. It almost seems more in line with real life. ’cause when you’re working in the job, you’re not gonna be expected to know everything off the top of your head.

[00:25:01] Jade Cunnah: Yeah. 

[00:25:01] Simon Scriver: And part, I mean, part of the skill is being able to go away. Do the desk work, the research and come back with the answer. And the, so it, it seems like it’s, it’s like being in school. You remember when you used to do exams and you weren’t allowed your calculator, and it’s like, yeah, well I have a calculator everywhere else, so.

[00:25:18] Jo McGuinness: Yeah, I know, I know. It’s really strange. Um, and it sort of aligns a little bit with that. Um, another bugbear of mine, which is, uh, job ads that say things like hit the ground running or must be able to work in a high pressure environment like fundraising teams are not the a and e department of your local hospital.

[00:25:35] Jo McGuinness: Like there should be nothing that you are dealing with that requires those you sentences in a job description. People have the time to pick up the phone and have a conversation with somebody if they’re not sure about something, you can go away and research. You can check your files and folders for relevant information.

[00:25:53] Jo McGuinness: Like people don’t need to know stuff off the top of their head. 

[00:25:56] Simon Scriver: Mm-hmm. So, so much of it seems to be about just being more considered, considered in your decisions, you know, because, uh, you see these job ads sometimes with phrases like that, or do you know, just certain, certain bits in the end. Really, there’s really no explanation why it’s in there.

[00:26:13] Simon Scriver: And even if you ask the recruiter, they don’t really have an explanation. It’s just kind of gone in there because it’s yeah, what you do. And so I do love that you stop and take the time to really kind of consider these practices as we’re doing them. 

[00:26:25] Jo McGuinness: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s the thing. It comes back to time.

[00:26:29] Jo McGuinness: Recruiting agencies have the time to do that. To look at a job description and be like, right, let’s take these phrases out because what do you actually mean? What are you actually looking for? Same with, um, person specifications that are as long as your arm and you know, to read them, you’d think. This organization is looking for a unicorn.

[00:26:48] Jo McGuinness: We can take the time to really distill what is it that is absolutely vital that you need this person to walk in the door, able to do, able to evidence, and what can be taught, what can be developed. Because the thing is, what I find really odd about persons facts as well, is like sometimes when there’s everything in the kitchen sink, you’re thinking, well, this person’s gonna come in, they’re gonna be bored within a month because there’s absolutely nothing for them to learn.

[00:27:10] Jo McGuinness: Because what you’re asking for is. The person who can do absolutely everything straight off the bat, but that’s not reality. 

[00:27:17] Simon Scriver: That’s really, that’s interesting. It does seem like there’s just mystical dance between recruiter and candidates sometimes where Yeah, so much of it has just been about. Being honest and transparent and really straightforward with what you’re both looking for and not treating.

[00:27:31] Simon Scriver: You know, you talk a lot about the dynamic in it, you know, the being aware of the dynamic, the power dynamic between it. Yeah. It’s funny how it’s become that as opposed to this conversation between two parties who are trying to achieve the same thing. 

[00:27:45] Jo McGuinness: Yeah. Yeah. The power dynamic is definitely something for recruiting organizations and recruiter managers to be consciously aware of and actively fighting against, which is why one of the things that we would do is work with our client to create a really, really great candidate pack that is as transparent as.

[00:28:04] Jo McGuinness: Like cards on the table, what are the challenges gonna be when you work here? How is success measured? What will your induction period look like? Because these are the sorts of questions that candidates have that they often don’t wanna ask because the power dynamic is weighted heavily in the favor of the recruiting organization.

[00:28:21] Jo McGuinness: But by putting all of that information out there, whether it is in the form of a candidate pack, or if you do a little video as the recruiter manager sort of talking about things like the culture of the organization, then it really helps people to feel. Welcomed, um, to answer the questions that they otherwise would be concerned about and might actually prevent them from applying to the role.

[00:28:42] Jo McGuinness: Um, but also it’s just so demonstrative of your values and of positive working culture. Um, so that’s, you know, another thing that recruiting managers can do. 

[00:28:52] Simon Scriver: Yeah, that’s wonderful. I, I’m conscious of time. Um, Joe and I will remind people, uh, the fundraising, re recruitment and careers conference, uh, is happening in November.

[00:29:01] Simon Scriver: And we’ll be really diving deep into this from the point of view. If you are, um, if you are, if you are a recruiter or if you are looking at recruiting in the future. Um, but also if you are perhaps a candidate or someone who’s thinking about moving, just really trying to get everyone on the same page. So do check out, um, that conference, the link.

[00:29:18] Simon Scriver: In the bio. Joe, before I send you off and I let you get back to talking to all these wonderful candidates, um, I, I was just gonna ask you like, what, what’s the vibe out there at the moment? Like, where are good candidates coming from? What is, you know, what is the level, like, how are you finding it? 

[00:29:34] Jo McGuinness: Yeah, so I think, um, what I’m seeing at the moment is organizations are struggling to find the candidates they really want or need, and I think we had a bit of a mass exodus from the sector.

[00:29:47] Jo McGuinness: Post COVID, um, a lot of great people have left. And of course there would’ve been that period of a couple of years where recruitment wasn’t happening, um, particularly across some of the more, um, public facing income streams such as community fundraising. So I think. Organizations need to get a bit more creative in terms of who they’re looking for and the skills and experience that candidates are bringing, and really open their doors to welcoming people from outside of the sector who have got great things to offer.

[00:30:16] Jo McGuinness: And there are a couple of organizations that I know of that are doing that really, really well, really nicely. Um, and I’m speaking to candidates who really wanna join the sector. Mm-hmm. But it’s about, mm-hmm. Again, going back to that sort person specification, what is it that an organization truly needs?

[00:30:31] Jo McGuinness: And really defining that in a way that’s accessible for people, even if they haven’t got fundraising experience. Um, you know, and explaining within your process how somebody with transferable experience can be, um, welcomed with open arms and, and what they can offer to the organization. So I think, um, from a candidate point of view, I would say it’s still a candidate’s market.

[00:30:51] Jo McGuinness: I think. Um. There’s a lot more roles out there than there are candidates. Interesting. But a lot of those roles can feel a bit sort of prohibitive in terms of what they’re looking for. So my challenge to the recruiting organizations is if you are struggling to recruit, I take another look at how you are putting your, how you’re presenting your advert.

[00:31:11] Jo McGuinness: And particularly that person’s specification, is it actually accurate? Mm-hmm. Um, probably not. 

[00:31:18] Simon Scriver: Yeah, I think, I think that’s a fair challenge to, to really kind of reflect on that. But I’m actually gonna trump that and say, actually just talk to Joe and the people that think it sort, I mean, I would not be taking on this headache and I I would be pulling in someone like you.

[00:31:29] Simon Scriver: So Joe, where, where, where’s the best place for people to find you? If they did wanna chat to you about this or kind of maybe. Run their, what they’re doing past, um, to look at the future. Where, where do you hang out these days? 

[00:31:40] Jo McGuinness: Yeah, well, I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, so feel free to find me on LinkedIn and just direct message me.

[00:31:47] Jo McGuinness: Um, and then think, um, think recruitment’s part of, of think so think cs.org. Um, we are, we cover many, many different areas, not just fundraising and interim, but consultancy, um, and research. So we’ve got a page on Think recruitment on our website. So yeah, please find me there. Um, and also I would also encourage anybody, uh, within the sector to join fundraising chat on Facebook.

[00:32:14] Jo McGuinness: So, fantastic community loads of support. 

[00:32:17] Simon Scriver: I, I miss you from the Twitter days. I think we feel like I, Dave, but, um, you, you are great on LinkedIn and your team is great on LinkedIn. You’ve got some very vocal team who really like. Put out some great ideas and thoughts, so I do recommend following everyone and think, um, and yeah, and we’ll get to hear more from you at the, at the conference in November, I hope.

[00:32:37] Jo McGuinness: Yeah. Can’t wait. It’s gonna be fantastic. 

[00:32:39] Simon Scriver: Amazing. Joe, thank you so much for your time. I imagine, uh, I’ll be checking in with you again ’cause I don’t think this is, um, uh, I don’t think these are issues that are gonna disappear in the next year or two. So let, let’s book in another session soon, John. Why 

[00:32:53] Jo McGuinness: not?

[00:32:54] Jo McGuinness: Okay. 

[00:32:55] Simon Scriver: Uh, thank you very much Joe, and thank you again to, um, thank, uh, uh, for being so supportive of us in many ways. Um, but especially being involved in the fundraising, recruitment and careers conference, which is happening on the 20th of November, um, at fundraising everywhere.com. But there’s a link direct, uh, uh, in the description here.

[00:33:13] Simon Scriver: And that’s it really. I just wanna say thank you to everyone again for tuning into the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. My name is and has been Simon Scriver. I am one of the co-founders and it is a privilege to still be here with you. Um, so thank you all, do get in touch if there’s anything we can help with.

[00:33:29] Simon Scriver: Um, but otherwise we’ll see you the conference in November. 

[00:33:33] Alex Aggidis: Thank you so much for listening to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. If you’re enjoying this podcast, why not share it with a fundraising friend? And if you would like to give us a little ly or subscribe, it really helps more fundraisers like you find us.

[00:33:46] Alex Aggidis: Thank you so much. See you next time.

*************
This transcript was created using AI. If you spot any mistakes, please reach out. Thank you!